Sides of grilles have a 1/4" gap even with "J-hooks"

[02tom]

Upon fitting the new grills with euro headlights (Hella) the sides of grilles have a 1/4" gap even with "J-hooks" installed.  I don't want to force them to comply, but what am I missing here?  The euro headlights seem to be holding the grills out too far.  Couldn't find this issue in any searches.

[wegweiser]

Make sure the grille isn't physically contacting something in the nose panel. New grilles probably don't fit as well as old, original ones (BMW quality ain't what it used to be)… 

 

FWIW: Matt McGinn at Sportscar Restorations did all the metal work on my last 02, and spent DAYS getting the nose/fender/grille fit correct. he even said to me: "Paul, only THESE grilles will fit this car…and this car will fit ONLY these grilles."

 

If you have the correct Euro buckets and correct deep Euro / early grilles, that should not affect fit. Photo for comparison. **EDIT** - looks like you may be trying to fit the later shallow (USA) grilles over Euro stuff… which is likely your issue. 

 

Malaga car has early / Euro deep surround to accommodate light… blue car has mid 72 -73 (USA only) shallower type with US style headlights. Perhaps you have the US grilles. Note: blue car has never had it's grilles removed in 45 years, hence the flawless fit. 

 

EDIT Nr 2: You may have later (74-76) Euro buckets / lights, which might compound the problem. I recall there being two or more versions of each era…including Bosch vs Hella and LHD vs RHD. (after a quick scan of my ancient parts books)

Edited November 4, 2018 by wegweiser

[02tom]

This looks more complicated than I had thought when I ordered the grilles and headlights years ago.  Your grilles look different from mine, most likely the early deep euro grilles you've mentioned, so I guess that's not a good sign.  The results for the grills are the same no matter what you use for the vehicle at realoem.com: 51 13 1 808 473 and 51 13 1 808 474 which are what I have.  I'll have to take them back out to see if there is something keeping them from seating all the way back in the nose panel.  I can see how this will be much more time consuming than I anticipated - just like most everything else on this car.

I'm not sure if I have the early euro anything at this point I'm afraid.  The results for headlight are the same, though confusing from realoem.  Depending on what drawing you choose, you get a different part number for the Hella headlights.  I can only assume that these are euro headlights, being I used the euro selection in doing the search.  Edit: I found my invoice from 2013 (the good old days when you could buy euro parts thru your dealer) and they are the 63 12 8 650 020  Hellas based on drawing 63/1 in realoem.com.  But this is still inconclusive.

 

Headlights from realoem.com:
63 12 1 354 382  Hella  (NLA)    from drawing 63/4 - for 02/64 to 08/73   specified 1973 2002 (later euro)
63 12 1 355 044 Bosch (may be available) from drawing 63/4 - for 02/64 to 08/73  specified 1973 2002 (later euro)

63 12 1 354 382  Hella  (NLA)    from drawing 63/4 - for 02/64 to 08/73   specified 1971 2002 (later euro)
63 12 1 355 044 Bosch (may be available) from drawing 63/4 - for 02/64 to 08/73  specified 1971 2002 (later euro)

63 12 8 650 020 Hella (may be available) from drawing 63/1 - for 02/62 to 08/73    specified 1971 2002 (early euro)
63 12 8 650 025 Bosch (NLA) from drawing 63/1 - for 02/62 to 08/73    specified 1971 2002 (early euro)

63 12 8 650 020 Hella (may be available) from drawing 63/1 - for 02/62 to 08/73    specified 1973 2002 (early euro)
63 12 8 650 025 Bosch (NLA) from drawing 63/1 - for 02/62 to 08/73    specified 1973 2002 (early euro)
 

Edited November 4, 2018 by 02tom

[Conserv]

Tom,

 

Notwithstanding Paul’s excellent analysis, to me, your side grilles look more like deep grilles than shallow grilles. Below is a photo for illustration: top grille is deep, bottom grille is shallow.

 

That said, there is a depth range for each of these styles of grilles: different manufacturers perhaps, different standards, different manufacturing methods possibly.

 

A U.S. deep grille (March 1966 until mid 1972 model year) should be the same as a Euro grille (March 1966 through August 1973), subject to the differences both Paul describes above (relating to car-to-car differences) and I note here (grille-to-grille variances).

 

I suspect the solution is going to involve identifying the pinch point(s) and tweaking the offending points. By the by, I’ve always found that you do need to apply some pressure to the outboard corners of the grilles to pull them in tight. It’s not ridiculous pressure, but it’s real pressure. At least that’s how every ‘02 I’ve owned worked... ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Conserv

[MOJOJOY]

Do the euro buckets have the outer black ring still installed? 

[02tom]

Steve,
Thanks for the input; this is my main question then: 
"A U.S. deep grille (March 1966 until mid 1972 model year) should be the same as a Euro grille (March 1966 through August 1973)"
which, if not, there's not to much I can to do obtain deep euro grilles at this point.

 

Mojojoy,
My euro buckets never had a black ring when they came to me.  The only picture I can find right now, looks like there's an added piece to the front for the glass retainer but I think it may be just a crimped area, and I don't think it can or should be removed.

[ssp2019]

Yes, agree with Steve above, those look like the early deep grills that came on us cars 68-mid 72 or so and in Europe 68-73.

Any history of front left collisions on your car?

[Conserv]

9 hours ago, 02tom said:

Steve,
Thanks for the input; this is my main question then: 
"A U.S. deep grille (March 1966 until mid 1972 model year) should be the same as a Euro grille (March 1966 through August 1973)"
which, if not, there's not to much I can to do obtain deep euro grilles at this point.

 

 

Tom,

 

My point is that if your grilles are already deep grilles — closer to the top example in my earlier photograph — there’s no other (or better) grille that will solve this problem. The deep grilles (all Euro round taillight cars and U.S. round taillight cars through mid-1972) remain sporadically available as batches are run based on demand. But the odds of a brand new deep grille solving a problem you have with an older new deep grille is slim, and not worth pursuing. The shallow grilles (U.S.-only, mid-1972 through 1973) went NLA decades ago. So I’d look to “finessing” your existing grilles and/or your existing headlight buckets to provide that extra 1/4” of “give” you need. And don’t be surprised if the left and right sides are not mirror images!

 

As Paul pointed out, ‘02 nosepieces assume different curves and angles, as repairs are made over time — I see your left fender has been replaced — and you may need to adapt your specific grilles and buckets to the nosepiece shape you have today!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Conserv

[02tom]

Steve,

 

Thanks for the clarification - I had somehow assumed that a deep euro grille would be deeper than the US version.  I'll be spending some time on it Monday, I just didn't want to start working with the existing parts when there was a better part for the application.

 

Now how you know my fender was replaced, I'll have to think on that one.  Probably the more obvious seem above the headlight...  Both fenders and nose panel have been replaced, but the nose is from the factory prior to 1996, so I hope that is in my favor with the replacement grills. I don't know the accident history, but like I say, it was sold with a new nose welded on and no fenders in 1996 and needed a lot of work.  It didn't even come with a hood.  The nose replacement was far from perfect but that was mine to discover as time went on.

 

I do have one of the shallow grilles that I really should find a match for, or find someone who is doing a concours restoration and needs one.  But then you wouldn't use a used grille on such a restoration without refinishing it, and the bright-work on these don't take to refinishing very well from what I understand.

 

Again, I appreciate the help - I can get bogged down with the parts numbers at time and doing searches that don't reveal the minute specifics as you've graciously provided.  That and DLST has me way off of getting enough sleep today and starting this week out it looks like.  4am was too early, but it was 3am after I woke up and realized it and set all my clocks back that needed it.

 

Thanks again,

Tom

Edited November 4, 2018 by 02tom

[MOJOJOY]

Maybe loosen the headlight and tighten after the grill is on the correct spot! 

Red circle shows fender replacement. Should be smooth

[Mikesmalaga72]

The part numbers for those lights varied with addition of the black rings for the later cars and part number changed with simply deleting those rings to adapt to the pre 74 cars.. The lamp assembly floats in their mounting holes assuming you examined that, look for the rubber gaskets adhered to the mounting surface if applied and substitute with thinner or no gasket pads mounted it should gain you some additional clearance. Additionally tighten down the headlight to full torque after aligning the light assembly. When satisfied with alignment of light assembly retry the hook mount and try look for binding or stresses on the grille. Carefully bend where necessary I believe it was necessary back in the day to meld grilles to the car. Good luck let us know the results.

[02Les]

Make sure the grill (s) is (are) not hanging up between the bottom of the headlight bucket and the opening of the nose panel. I had a problem there with my later plastic grills after my recent Touring refurb, and had to ease the headlight assys hgher. The buckets do have some clearance in the fixing holes. It's usual that when fitting the headlight assys they will probably be at the bottom of the clearance in the fixing holes.

[02tom]

Mojojoy - there's quite a bit on this car that are no longer as they should be.  The indentation was left as the fenders were brazed on, but yes, I should have know this was a telltale sign.

 

If I don't get to it tomorrow, it may be next week before I report back, but I think the idea of moving the headlights up in their holes may be spot on advice.  We'll see how it goes; this is a overly complicated install by choice, so I'm expecting it to take longer.  Hopefully they'll just fall into place.

[Mikesmalaga72]

With most things on these cars time and care will go a long way to success.