Idle/Progression Circuit, Compression Woes, and Cheap Bottom End Compatibility

[Swiss 2002Tii]

Hi Jeff,
 

I spoke to Rolf Emmenegger at Emmenegger Power

http://emmenegger-power.com/

+41 41 670 07 77 

He reads my emails, but he doesn't answer much.  I usually follow with a call.

emmeneggerpower@bluewin.ch

 

He said he has a storage in Germany (probably just over the border in your direction).  He has a number of motors: whole, rebuilt, blocks rebuilt, original, etc.  I told him you wanted something cheap, and possibly to rebuild yourself.  He said he would look at what he's got.  I will go there next week to (hopefully) pick up my Tii.  Either way, I plan to visit.

 

I re-read your post, and it looks like you want a cheap, functioning block that you could mount your cylinder head to?

His English-speaking mechanic Roy Giddings (Formula 1 mech) is back next Monday.  That would be a good time to call.

 

Let me know if you need any help.

 

Tom

[2002Scoob]

17 minutes ago, Swiss 2002Tii said:

He said he has a storage in Germany (probably just over the border in your direction).  He has a number of motors: whole, rebuilt, blocks rebuilt, original, etc.  I told him you wanted something cheap, and possibly to rebuild yourself.  He said he would look at what he's got.  I will go there next week to (hopefully) pick up my Tii.  Either way, I plan to visit.

 

YEEEEESSSSS. This is what I need!

 

I'd prefer to spend the least amount possible on a solid running basic bottom end, but I could easily have my arm twisted for something that's in the right direction performance wise. For example, a slightly tired or honed-and-ringed higher compression bottom-end would be cool too. Or an S14 bottom as well.... But instead of having to sell a bicycle or two, I'd have to be looking to non-vital organs

[Swiss 2002Tii]

Hi Jeff,

 

Answer next week is OK?  I'm away this weekend.

 

If Rolf is up for it, I might go there with him next week; I'd like to see what he's got.  I'll let you know if that is going to happen.

 

So the following would be OK?:

1. a known good block (or motor?) that could be run as is
2. a block that he thinks should be renewed
3. one that has been honed, with new rings and/or pistons
4. S14 block - Can your E12 head be mounted on an S14 block?  I don't know the answer.

I just pulled a set of pistons (89.97mm) that are probably not as bad as they look; PO used undersized for the bore, and the gaps were lined up, so they had a lot of oil blow-by, but could probably be cleaned up with new rings.

 

[2002Scoob]

Pretty much as you say.

Ideal situation budget wise would be an e12 mate-able bottom end, as complete and functioning as possible. Would be nice to just swap the head/carbs and go, but I'm fine having to swap a water/oil pump, or do a few misc. other things.

Bonus points if it's from a tii with the 10:1 pistons (but I'm not sure if tii's also have e12 heads?)

Next option would be be the same as above, but could get by with minimum labor to hone and ring so that it can get by. The thought of Swiss Mechanic prices scares me a bit, heh.

I'd prefer to not put too much into it financially so I can save towards the build of the original motor this winter. But if a sound decision for a fair price can be had, I'll take it.

As for the S14, it is indeed possible, but likely outside my budget. If he did have one for a good price, thou.... I'd be highly motivated to sell a few things and change plans! Would make for a NA beast.


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[bitbckt]

50 minutes ago, 2002Scoob said:

Bonus points if it's from a tii with the 10:1 pistons (but I'm not sure if tii's also have e12 heads?)

 

Later Tii models did. They had either 121 or E12, with 10:1, 9.5:1, or 9.0:1 pistons, depending upon year and US/RoW.

[2002Scoob]

Sometimes being right sucks.

 

1.

2.

3.

4.

Edited July 3, 2017 by 2002Scoob

[zinz]

uggggghhhh.... the saga continues  

 

 

[2002Scoob]

12 minutes ago, zinz said:

uggggghhhh.... the saga continues  

 

 

Hey Zinz! 

 

Yep, yep is does. But I'm not fretting. Fingers are crossed for some good Karma from the car-gods. I knew it would go at some point, and I got one good road trip outa' her this summer and allot of fun drives here in the Black Forest, but was hoping it was later than sooner. 

 

Now that I've moved outa' my old shop a few months ago, looks like I'll be swappin' motors in the parking lot when I find a replacement bottom-end, which I think is do-able. I'm up for the challenge!

[2002Scoob]

So, I figured it be best to upload/update to this thread. 

 

This evening I pulled my head in preparation for dropping my original motor. 

 

When I did, this is what I found-

 

It would appear that some how the pistons caught up with the exhaust valves, and gave them a solid love tap....

 

Now, on to the problem-solving side of this-

 

What could have caused such a thing to happen? 

 

Given that the car has been on the road for a while in mixed driving conditions, did a series of dyno pulls with a seasoned mechanic, and completed several long trips all-in-all running fine... I'm a little lost as to what could have caused it. 

 

I've religiously checked my valve lash on a bi-weekly basis, and I'm 100% positive everything was set up properly timing wise/clearance when I built the motor. It's never made any loud tapping noises or anything out of the normal. 

 

Flashback to when I lost compression- I was in mid-high RPM's under moderate throttle, when it felt like the power deflated, and the exhaust pulses went as best I can describe it, 'fluffy', stumbling, and a sincere drop in RPM's. I don't remember any knock or thwack noise.

 

I'm thinking it has to be something timing related. I set the cam to TDC when I pulled the head, and the pistons were also at topout after I pulled it. Therefor, i'm hesitant to think that it could have skipped a tooth. Timing chain/cam sprocket are in great condition. Guides are solid as well. 

 

What about the hydraulic tensioner? Is there a situation where It could have lost tension and somehow slackened the chain enough for the pistons to catch up with closing exhaust valves? 

 

I find it interesting that the #4 clearly has the hardest hit, followed by 1. Whereas, 2 and 3 are relatively minor taps. 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by 2002Scoob

[jireland2002]

piston to valve --  this usually happens on a down shift with a weak tensioner.   Also seen this a lot with 292 cam in an engine with a thin head.

[zinz]

Good info to know, Jeff.  Thanks for that tidbit.

Ed

[jimk]

38 minutes ago, jireland2002 said:

this usually happens on a down shift with a weak tensioner

By this are you saying that the rotational inertia of the cam driving the valves is greater than the inertial of the rotating mass of the crank/flywheel etc.????  It would have to be for the slack side of the chain to be tensioned.  That I can't accept without better explanation.  The cam has virtually no inertia compared to the bottom end.

[jireland2002]

A down shift with poorly matched rpm, or from a speed such that when the clutch is released forces the engine to increase RPM.  Using the engine to slow the car is ok from reasonable speed if the rpms are well matched.  

[jimk]

2 hours ago, jireland2002 said:

that when the clutch is released forces the engine to increase RPM

Basis is still not coming thru because when the engine increases in RPM, the pulling side of the chain is still the drivers side, not the tensioner side.  No mater whether the engine speed is increasing or decreasing, the pulling side of the chain is still taut.  Purpose of the tensioner shoe is to keep the ripple out of the slack side.  

Edited July 19, 2017 by jimk
speling needed fixnig

[2002Scoob]

I'm trying my best not to start pointing blame at the guy who did the head for me about milling it too thin till I 100% know that could be the case. But according to him before we started that year long mess it was safe and had enough material left, so I'm biting my tongue till I have more facts. 

 

I will however say that it did NOT happen during a down-shift.

 

I was in the brewery where I work doing acceleration pulls across the lot while watching AFR's on my wideband, hoping to take the richness outa the idle, and a lean spot spot I was having from progression to main circuit, there was no high RPM downshifting involved. I had my foot in it, it probably hit around 4.5-5k RPM's and the wind fell out of the sails and the car lost power in the middle of a 'pull' where I was pretty much driving back and forth across the lot. 

 

Here's my plan right now-

I'm going to let the guy who's doing the blue block continue, he said he should be finished by the end of the week. I'll then bring him the head and ask him his professional opinion not only on what would need to be fixed, but , and see what he says about the thickness/quality of work from the previous guy. He'll then likely also have something to offer regarding the fit/match with the 9.5 pistons, and if it's inviting even more pain. That will dictate where I go from there. 

 

Follow up Questions-

 

What's the most accurate way to measure how much material has been removed from a head? is block to valve cover an accurate means? And what numbers should I be looking for? I've got all the tools to do so. 

 

I'm guessing one way to avoid the problem is going with a thicker headgasket, no? I'm guessing how thick would be dictated by understanding just how much has been pulled from the head. 

 

Anything else I should be looking for or checking? Tensioner piston and bore diameter?