engine swap Engine swap or wild rebuild??

[evil02]

   Ok, so it is time to restore the car and either build an engine or do a swap.  I have a feeling I will get a big "no" on the swap and I understand but, I feel a modern engine may be a better choice. Another factor is I need a 5spd so, 320i or a swapped tranny.  The car will be an around the town car and a DE machine.

 

So, here are the choices

 

1. M10 rebuild and 320i tranny.   Billet crank, custom rods and pistons. Big valve head with custom cam, ITBs and a turbo running a Link EFI.

 

2. S2000 stock(n/a for now) with Honda tranny(6sp) with aftermarket ecu and later a turbo..

 

What do you think?

[Fatherof3]

Way more fun per dollar with a NA F20C/F22C

Edited September 29, 2016 by Fatherof3

[2joejoe2]

Both Sound awesome.

 

the S2000 route would probably be cheaper in the end though.

 

I bet you would have at least 10k in the M10 motor including Turbo and ITBs. 

[jgerock]

My advice

1) keep the m10 in the engine bay

2) find a decent S2000 and drive the heck out of it.  When these cars first came out in the Fall of 1999, there was a waiting list at dealerships just to get a test drive. My wife and I were buying a new Honda at that time and I struggled between an Accord Coupe, the Prelude (final year) and then the S2000 came out.

[evil02]

Well, I already have a standalone and new gtx30 with all the supporting goods. ITB's will be around $800.  The motor will cost me under $6k as I do all my own work and only be buying custom pistons. I will make the crank and rods. I am kind of in the business so, I get a break on some parts.

 

So, fresh m10 but, I still need a tranny. $500-$1000 for a 320i box and then rebuild costs..

 

The F20 will be a 50k to 80k mileage used motor with same on the tranny. so eventually, both will need rebuild. One for boost and one to handle the boost.  The combo sells on ebay for around $3500 to $4500 used with wiring and ecu(stock)

 

Believe it or not and it sounds crazy but, the M10 may be the best choice for a fresh engine and only tranny costs but, everything about the S2000 route seems  like it should be better???  Damn I am confused.

 

Any high'ish mileage 300+hp M10 turbo builds out there?

Edited September 29, 2016 by evil2002
spelling, sorry

[evil02]

10 minutes ago, jgerock said:

My advice

1) keep the m10 in the engine bay

2) find a decent S2000 and drive the heck out of it.  When these cars first came out in the Fall of 1999, there was a waiting list at dealerships just to get a test drive. My wife and I were buying a new Honda at that time and I struggled between an Accord Coupe, the Prelude (final year) and then the S2000 came out.

I hear and appreciate the advise but, I can't add another car or I will probably end up living in it.. lol   so, upgrade the 02' or sell it for something else. There is no way I am selling this car. It is a childhood car I had to have.

[TobyB]

Do what you want to.

 

Don't cut up a very nice original car- start with something that's already 'daily driver' or worse.

 

351W, perhaps?

 

heh

 

There are a few threads that are very much like yours from a while back- I suspect what we said then still mostly applies.

 

 

t

[evil02]

   Ha, 351 would sound nice, lol!    Nah, I think overall, the car is too nice to cut up so, I will rock the m10.  I love the idea of that f20 revving to 9k all day but, the car just wouldn't be a historic car any more..

 

 I think I'm going to build a stroker billet crank and try to bump it up to 2.2 or 2.3ltrs. S14 like but, lighter and better oiling and cheaper.

[Fatherof3]

6 hours ago, evil2002 said:

 I already have a standalone and new gtx30 with all the supporting goods.

 

I do all my own work and only be buying custom pistons. I will make the crank and rods. 

 

I get a break on some parts.

 

 

This would have been useful information in your opening question.

 

If you are able to have a stroker M10 engine with custom parts you built yourself I think there is a cool factor and lot of satisfaction in that, that you wont get from dropping in a F20c.

Still no comparison in transmissions though

[jrhone]

You missed a few easy options. M42 turbo and M20 turbo.  S2000 requires a lot of hacking to the car. M42 Turbo may be cheaper than the M10 and potentially faster. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by jrhone

[TobyB]

Not, perhaps, that this matters much to you, but bang for the buck, use a stock crank, long rods, and spend most of your budget on getting to 25 psi of boost by 4500 rpm.  And an 8500 rpm redline (VNT, then, I guess)

 

That's where the power will be, over the extra 200- 300 cc of displacement.  Of course, the displacement won't hurt, it's just that the extra $500- 1000 spent on longer rods or a massive intercooler will probably net you more...

 

Since I'm spending your money!

 

Also, why not an M12 head and go all out?

 

heh

 

t

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by TobyB

[evil02]

8 hours ago, Fatherof3 said:

This would have been useful information in your opening question.

 

8 hours ago, Fatherof3 said:

If you are able to have a stroker M10 engine with custom parts you built yourself I think there is a cool factor and lot of satisfaction in that, that you wont get from dropping in a F20c.

Still no comparison in transmissions though

Yeah, sorry about that.   I don't pay for much(all things relative) unless I count my time. I would call myself an extreme hobbiest

 

It is the tranny situation that stumps me. Having only the 245 as an option, blows my mind.  The 6spd s2k tranny is soooo nice!

 

 

8 hours ago, jrhone said:

You missed a few easy options. M42 turbo and M20 turbo.  S2000 requires a lot of hacking to the car. M42 Turbo may be cheaper than the M10 and potentially faster. 

8 hours ago, jrhone said:

You missed a few easy options. M42 turbo and M20 turbo.  S2000 requires a lot of hacking to the car. M42 Turbo may be cheaper than the M10 and potentially faster. 

 

Sorry, double quoted!    Anyhow..  My thought is, if I have to buy another motor, it will just be the f20. Otherwise, use what I got type thing and the cool factor of the m10 is a plus.  Now, Maybe swap out the 121 head so, I can get something that flows better but, I'm not even sure about that yet.

7 hours ago, TobyB said:

Not, perhaps, that this matters much to you, but bang for the buck, use a stock crank, long rods, and spend most of your budget on getting to 25 psi of boost by 4500 rpm.  And an 8500 rpm redline (VNT, then, I guess)

 

That's where the power will be, over the extra 200- 300 cc of displacement.  Of course, the displacement won't hurt, it's just that the extra $500- 1000 spent on longer rods or a massive intercooler will probably net you more...

 

Since I'm spending your money!

 

Also, why not an M12 head and go all out?

 

heh

 

t

 

T,

Feel free to spend all my money while bench racing, I don't mind. I like brainstorming with others.  I'm new to the m10/121 setup so, I am not sure how much air I can get the 121 head to move.  If I use it,  I will port it and try larger valves and thinner stems, etc..   The head will determine what the crank and rods will be. If it just flat out stinks, then I will look into another head. At the moment, I need to educate myself on heads and "swapping" various years as I'm new to the BMW world.

 

  Well, I can just machine/rebuild the stock crank to work but, I would rather just make a lighter billet version with better oiling too. Rods are very easy. I will do Mahle motorsport pistons with slipper skirts and hard coat the ring lands.  I assume it will just be a torque monster(which is fine too).  The properly matched front and rear turbo housings really make a motor happy so, I will pay close attention to head flow numbers and pick the proper turbo to match. Right now I have a Garrett 30gtx but, I think it may be slightly too big.

 

I use Bell intercooler cores and they are awesome. I'll build a large front mount and duct it properly to get the air through it. Properly sized plenum, injectors, pumps, etc.. are easy.  The Link ECU is pretty awesome and it will work really well on this build.

 

Sorry, I threw out a lot of stuff but, I'm excited and planning a new build is really fun!  I'm also, fixing up the chassis and restoring the interior so, this will be a long "over the winter" build. I will start a blog when I do.

[TobyB]

Nah, this is the fun stage.  Wait 'till you get to the plumbing!
 

You do have another trans option, if you don't mind some work on the tunnel-

the G26(5?) from behind the M30 bolts to the M10.  The ratios aren't any better,

but the gears can take more torque, in theory.   While you're at it, the 188mm

diff from the E30 is probably worth your effort, as you can then use taller gears

from the E36 era as well- the tallest you can find for the small case will be 3.41's...

Some of the serious racers use the B-W t5- with an auto bellhousing, it's pretty

easy to adapt- but you still have to modify the tunnel.   It's just too narrow at the top.

 

As to head, they're all similar, and since you're having pistons made, AND using forced induction,

the cost to cut the head out to a single hemisphere is pretty reasonable.  At that point, which casting

doesn't matter- you just want one in good shape with no corrosion and nearly full height.  You might

contact Byron (preyupy on this board) as he knows a lot about everything M10, and he does

immaculate work, too.  And loves a good project.

 

hth

 

t

(ps, over 1 winter is a short project.  They don't seem to get long until the 3rd or 4th winter....)