engine and drivetrain Ready To Buy And Need Help With 2002 Options

[hynrgee]

I apologize in advance for the length of the post. You can skip right to the two cars I am considering and the questions if you like.

 

Hello everyone. I recently signed up on this site after deciding that it's time to consider buying an 02. It is not a rational decision. I was in high school during some of the years the car was produced and did not develop an interest in this car until sometime in the mid-90s when I was walking to my car and noticed a beautiful older car on the street. It was a baby blue 02 that I couldn't take my eyes off. The only other times that has happened to me may have involved blue eyed women. Other than that, I didn't know a thing about the car. I took note of the model and told myself that some day I should check into buying one. It's taken a while but it appears that day is finally here. 

 

I've read up on the car, but fall squarely into the very superficial level of knowledge. Worse, the last time I did any serious work on a car was probably a few years after high school. My dealership loves me. I have a younger brother who runs a Firestone dealership in Florida who I consulted about my plans. He said the 02 "was" a great car. He drove more than one. The he asked me if I've driven one lately to contrast to my Prius. I told him I've never driven an 02. Then he asked me how I liked using a typewriter knowing that I had a notebook PC handy that has great voice recognition. Of course, I had to admit that I hope to never use a typewriter again. He then asked me if I had any idea about the availability and cost of spare parts. I said no. He then felt sorry for me and suggested that I look at an old Mercedes to satisfy whatever deep psychological or emotional needs I had. He kept repeating that it's a 40 year old car that will drive like a 40 year old car under the best of circumstances.

 

I did followup on my brother's suggestion to look at old Mercedes, but I continue to be drawn to the 02. As  I said before, this is not rational action.

 

To get to the point, I am considering bidding for the following two cars:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131232949030?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

 

and 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-2002-Tii-SPORTS-COUPE-WITH-ONLY-ONE-CALIFORNIA-OWNER-2002-Tii-ORIGINAL-CALIFORNIA-OWNER-CAR-IN-/191237191136?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2c869ff5e0&item=191237191136&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

 

Following is my scorecard.

 

What the Sahara colored 74 02 has that's different and suggests greater value:

- air conditioning (very important, I'm in the Sacramento, CA, area)
- 5 speed (seems that most people think a 5 speed conversion is the way to go)
- right driver's mirror (out of habit it will be difficult to do without one)
- 2 additional head lamps (halos?)
- European bumper
- very nice tire rims
- front and rear leather seats
- less miles on current engine and performance rebuild
- upgraded disk breaks
- better audio system
- spare parts
- stabilizer bar

On the other hand, better on the Amazon  Green 74 02:

- One prior owner
- trunk is cleaner and tidier
- appears more original
- today's ebay price suggests this one is more affordable
- sold through a respected dealer

- all electronics working
- lower total driven miles

 

So which car would you recommend to me?

 

Again, my brother thinks getting spare parts will be both hard and expensive.

I have not seen either vehicle live but will be trying to arrange visits in the coming days before the auctions are over. I have been in contact with each seller and each is responsive.

 

Here is my short list of the known unknowns:

 

I don't know which is a better value or more fun. Thoughts? Is one related to the other?

 

I don't know if I should expect a difference in maintenance costs.

 

I don't know which would maintain its resale value better.

 

I would appreciate any and all thoughts or comments.

 

Thanks all. 

 

 

 

[glemon]

Wow man, you are ready to go all in, most of us on the forum buy our cars cheap then spend lots of time and money on them, but we advise others to buy the best you can because you will never get all the time and money you put in back out. If you are looking at good cars to buy you are already ahead of the curve.

 

First of all sorry, but your brother doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to parts, much is available new both from BMW and from aftermarket suppliers, those parts which aren't are available on e-bay and on this forum's wonderful marketplace.  If you are thinking about buying one of those cars for the prices listed I am guessing you have something else to drive, not that these can't be daily drivers, but anyway, most anything you need is probably a few days or a week at most away by mail,so if you have something else to drive, don't see that parts will be a problem.

 

Your brother also mentioned modern cars, particularly a Prius, if you want your car to be an appliance to get you from here to there as painlessly and with as little involvement as possible and that is all you want, stay with a Toyota.  If you want a car that is a little different, that makes driving fun (I had to use my 02 as a daily driver for a couple weeks recently when my wife's car was in the shop, and when I got home from work I often drove the 02 a few extra blocks around the neighborhood just for fun).  The cars are pretty reliable, but not like a Honda or Toyota where you can just change the oil for the first 100k or so and have a good chance of not having to do much else to it if you are even a little bit lucky.  It helps to have a good ear or mechanical sensitivity so you can spot problems and solve them early.  It helps to have some tools and mechanical aptitude, or a reasonably deep checkbook to pay someone else to work on your car, but with the internet and sites like this, if you are so inclined, there are people who can walk you through most any repair if you get stuck.  Not trying to scare you off, but just a dose of reality, the flipside these cars are really pretty tough,  I bought mine cheap (little over 2K) and once I did a couple things to get it running, it has run and run and not come near to feeling unsafe or leaving me stranded in the year I have owned it now.

 

As far as the two cars, I would not buy an expensive old car on the internet without an inspection by someone who is knowledgeable about the specific cars, or at least a darn skilled hobbyist or mechanic that knows a lot about cars generally.  Cars can look very nice and have had much money spent on them, but they may or may not be "sorted" meaning being ready to drive and enjoy.  In addition, shiny paint and a clean interior can hide poorly repaired rust or accident damage underneath.  I would not buy either car (both of which are getting close to "all the money in the world" for a 2002 prices) without a thorough inspection, a lot can happen to a car, good and bad, over 40 years.

 

As far as which car, I did not look at the auctions that closely, but I am partial to green, but boy I wish my car had A/C and a 5 speed! 

[kamo]

I got totally burned buying my 02 on ebay. and I mean completely.

I learned the very hard way, don't buy a car you haven't seen in person.

there are some real evil people out there (and good ones here on the board).

Edited July 9, 2014 by kamo

[eurotrash]

... if you're advertising interest in a car, and express a sizable budget as you have done, there are predators here as well.

 

While there may be good peeps down there, this is my advice when shopping 2002s:

 

Edited July 9, 2014 by eurotrash

[eurotrash]

Re the Tiis..

 

Well, my opinion on what folks are paying for them these days..  "A fool and his money.." 
They aren't THAT impressive.

At 25k+, I already see a couple things that would have to be replaced..little things that the seller should have the common decency to take care of before demanding such high prices.

 

That being said.

 

Both, generally, look to be rather nice exmples of a 2002, in any form..  If retaining an investment value is your priority for owning a 2002, and you don't work on cars yourself, buy the stocker. 

1. As with any old car, bone stock examples are getting fewer and fewer.  Embrace the 'return' to stock' ethic, and reverse the mods you find. Take pride in making it as original as you can.

2. An unmodified Tii (vs the other example) will be easier for a mechanic to work on and trouble shoot, and *potentially less expensive to maintain.  Once anything deviates from what is in a shop manual, the game changes.

3.If you must, add bolt on mods that are reversible. Make it your own, without staining it. Keep any parts that are removed for performance bits (springs, etc) so that you, or the next steward can swap them back in.

 

 

 

Parts can be expensive for the Tii specific bits, but then, its no 911.  Its all about perspective.

Edited July 9, 2014 by eurotrash

[Stuart]

There is good advice here.  I sent you a message with my email.  I live in the Bay Area and would be more than willing to talk.  I'm not the expert but my son and I each have an 02 currently and have a pretty good handle on resources.  Also, there is a great 02 guy that lives just up the hill from you in Grass Valley.  Yes its a 40 yr old car but its a kick in the pants to drive and way better than any "soulless" new car. 

 

Stuart 

[eurotrash]

(Get your son's audio kit Stuart?)

[Conserv]

Re the Tiis..

Well, my opinion on what folks are paying for them these days.. "A fool and his money.."

They aren't THAT impressive.

At 25k+, I already see a couple things that would have to be replaced..little things that the seller should have the common decency to take care of before demanding such high prices.

That being said.

Both, generally, look to be rather nice exmples of a 2002, in any form.. If retaining an investment value is your priority for owning a 2002, and you don't work on cars yourself, buy the stocker.

1. As with any old car, bone stock examples are getting fewer and fewer. Embrace the 'return' to stock' ethic, and reverse the mods you find. Take pride in making it as original as you can.

2. An unmodified Tii (vs the other example) will be easier for a mechanic to work on and trouble shoot, and *potentially less expensive to maintain. Once anything deviates from what is in a shop manual, the game changes.

3.If you must, add bolt on mods that are reversible. Make it your own, without staining it. Keep any parts that are removed for performance bits (springs, etc) so that you, or the next steward can swap them back in.

Parts can be expensive for the Tii specific bits, but then, its no 911. Its all about perspective.

+1

What he said!

If your daily driver is a Prius, you really need to drive one of these cars first, and not simply slowly around the block: 40 years of technology separate a 2002 from a modern car. Tii prices are currently on fire and you will be buying in that market, which is great if the current fire keeps burning, but not so great if the current fire is short-lived! Lastly, you need to find an "old BMW type" -- perhaps through this forum -- to conduct a PPI (pre-purchase inspection) on any 2002 you buy.

Good luck,

Steve

Edited July 9, 2014 by Conserv

[eurotrash]

And if you think a 2002 feels too rickety, find one of these to test drive, and then get back in a 2002.  this thing makes my 2002 feel almost too NEW!

 

Once again, it's all about perspective..

Edited July 9, 2014 by eurotrash

[Cyclone101]

I would recommend that before you buy a  car, that you ask people on this forum for a ride in their car. There are MANY flavours of 02's, and I would recommend that you at least test a few to get a feel for what you prefer.

 

Most owners here would be more than willing to let you test their cars, you just have to ask.

 

As for prices and repair costs, it depends. It is usually cheaper to buy a more expensive car that runs well than to fix one up, so make sure that (especially the engine on the tii) the car runs well.

 

Rust should be your main concern as it is the most expensive problem to fix, make sure that someone that knows these cars inspect it for rust.

 

Find a car that is already modified the way you like if at all possible, getting shops to to do the work for you will be more expensive.

 

As for value, tii's, roundies, euro bumpered and stock cars command the highest prices and will continue to do so. (I'm omitting the more rare 02s)

 

But THE best advice I can give you, is to not rush things. Take your time, go test drive cars, keep searching and educating yourself and you will most likely find a car that makes you happy.

 

Best regards

Jacques

 

Edit: Btw, a well sorted 02 is a pleasure to drive, these cars handle great, can stop quickly, have light controls and can be very reliable. The only thing that shows its age is the cabin noise, but I like that because it adds to the driving experience.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Cyclone101

[mfbanres]

As mentioned above, you must get the car checked out before you buy long distance. 

 

Just saw a nice 73 in fjord blue on Bring-A-Trailer.  Have a look at that one, too.  It needs very little to bring it up to top driver quality.

[Mike Self]

Having driven 2002s exclusively since 1969...they're a blast to drive, but as has been pointed out, the car's technology dates back to 1961, when the prototype Neue Klasse cars were designed.  Drive one first and make sure it's what you're looking for in a fun car.  There are lotsa plusses, but also some minuses, especially if you've never driven an older car on a daily basis.  

 

Besides that, there are two other important considerations:  parts availability and repairs.  For a 2002, parts are no problem.  Several years ago BMW built a new 1973 2002tii from parts available from BMW Classic (they did find a new body shell, but all the other stuff came from their parts bins).  They're committed to providing parts for their older cars.  Repairs--the more you can do yourself, the better. Shops with Kugelfisher injection system experts--and even carburetor experts--are becoming less and less common as the older mechanics retire.  02's are pretty easy to work on--and there's lots of expertise on the Board for answering questions and within the archives.  

 

I've owned a couple of E30 318is cars, which BMW marketed in 1991 (only) as a "modern 2002."  And they are.  They're as much fun as an '02 but with modern amenities, such as A/C that works properly, a more sophisticated suspension system, 4 wheel disks with ABS, better insulated (less road/wind noise) etc.  Drove mine from Ohio to Colorado this summer and even my wife was happy and comfortable--not so when we've driven long distances in the '02.  If the '02 proves just a little to old for you, try a 318is (an E30, not an E36).

 

Not trying to dissuade you from buying a 2002, but what you're considering is like marrying a girl without having ever dated her.  

 

Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

cheers

mike

 

PS--for a first 2002, I'd go with a carbureted one.  And no 2002 A/C is gonna remotely resemble an integrated, factory A/C unit--they were all aftermarket.

[Mike Self]

BTW, the Jade green tii is one of the last US spec tii's built.  Highest VIN is 278298; this car is 2782911...

 

mike

Edited July 9, 2014 by mike

[Andy74tii]

I agree with what's been said above. All of the mods to the Sahara car are all the typical ones you see the folks on this forum doing. As a consequence, if you are looking for resale value, all those mods actually increase the value of the car, as long as you sell to a knowledgeable enthusiast such as the posters on this forum. Having said that, I have recently come to the conclusion that long term value mostly resides in keeping it as stock as possible. Toward that end, I thought the Jadegrun car was a better bet. In fact, I am in the process of reverting back to stock on my mods, which are highly reversible. I like that Jade car, however, you should know the seats are not from a '74. With regard to AC, you will never be able to compare the Behr system to anything even remotely modern. I tried for years and spent thousands and could not get there. Basically, my problem was solved when I moved away from Houston back to Colorado ....

[Conserv]

I agree with what's been said above. All of the mods to the Sahara car are all the typical ones you see the folks on this forum doing. As a consequence, if you are looking for resale value, all those mods actually increase the value of the car, as long as you sell to a knowledgeable enthusiast such as the posters on this forum. Having said that, I have recently come to the conclusion that long term value mostly resides in keeping it as stock as possible. Toward that end, I thought the Jadegrun car was a better bet. In fact, I am in the process of reverting back to stock on my mods, which are highly reversible. I like that Jade car, however, you should know the seats are not from a '74. With regard to AC, you will never be able to compare the Behr system to anything even remotely modern. I tried for years and spent thousands and could not get there. Basically, my problem was solved when I moved away from Houston back to Colorado ....

 

Andy,

 

I, too, personally, prefer the Jade car's original appearances and, as Mike smartly noted, its status as one of the last U.S. tii's.  Thanks for pointing out the seat issue: besides being of the '75-'76 style, they're overstuffed with foam (I'll admit, however, that they do look pretty comfortable).  And that piece of orange indoor/outdoor carpet sitting on the console floor drives me crazy: it distracts me from that gorgeous Becker Grand Prix stereo!

 

Best,

 

Steve