engine and drivetrain What is the "flat rate" to R & R an engine?

[EcoAuto]

I've purchased a newly rebuilt Tii engine from Kurt Bicknell, a terrific and responsible 02FAQer. The engine was rebuilt by Carl and crew at La Jolla Independent. It's a complete engine (K-Fish, injectors, manifolds, starter, distributor, etc - see photo) so I'm hoping for few hiccups. The crated engine should arrive here in a few days, and I'm excited to have my car back on the road soon.

I know some of you routinely pull and install an engine in less than an hour. I've also heard it's a 15 - 20 hour procedure at a cost of $1,300 to $2,000. at a qualified garage. While I know I should do the install myself, I'm going to have it done professionally.

Can anyone tell me what is the "flat rate" for removal and reinstallation of a complete 02 engine at a commercial garage? Is there an "official" source for determining the flat rate hours for the R &R?

As an alternative to flat rate, what is average cost for the R & R operation? Ignoring other variables such as engine compartment cleaning, refreshing, painting.

Other than putting in a new clutch, what other preventative maintenance items should I consider having done while the engine is out?

[Nicad]

Nice looking engine. Not sure how long it will take to swap, but it looks pretty straightforward to me. I'd spend some time cleaning the engine bay in areas you can 't easily reach unless the engine is out. Make sure the cooling system is fresh and up to date. Are you converting from a base model to a Tii?

I'd like to drop that engine in my car. Good time to go 5 speed if you haven't already.

[Cyclone101]

$2,000? are you sure? Thats about the cost of rebuilding your engine... Here in South Africa at least. I would not pay that. Pulling an engine you know your way around is quick if you have the right equipment(as a shop would). I would say if it is a simple swap and no balancing of prop shaft and such it should not take more than a working day, and not cost more than $500.

I am speaking from an South African perspective though, but should be roughly the same.

Regards

Jacques

[EcoAuto]

The engine coming out of my car is also a Tii engine. It was installed by a prior owner sometime in the 1980's and the head was rebuilt in 1999.

I struggled a bit with the decision about going with another Tii engine for my "fake" Tii, but the quality of the rebuilt engine I'm putting in made the decision easier.

The shop that I'd like to have remove and install the engine is the one and only shop within 500 miles of here that has Tii experience, and it's not worth the cost of trailering the car long distance to save some $ on nstallation. I want to support my local European car garage, and they have a great reputation for quality work and honesty.

But I still want to do a reality check on what typical engine swap takes / costs.

[pip]

you could call some other shops and ask them for a price...

[FB73tii]

Congratulations on the new tii engine. I don't think you are going to find a "flat rate" quote meaningful, what matters is how many hours you are quoted and what the shop rate is.

Do you have a quote from your local shop yet? I sounds like you are going to pull the original engine and clean things up yourself, so that saves quite a bit. I can't change an engine in an hour, but I recall having timed a few tii engine swaps, with hooking everything back up and tuning at about 6 hours. What makes a shop uncertain about a quote is difficulties encountered along the way, bolt that snap in the block, bad wiring harnesses, etc. You are cutting a lot of that out by doing the removal.

Ask the shop if they want the tranny out or in. If taking out tranny do the drivetrain maintenance (slave cylinder, guibo, possibly center bearing) in addition to the clutch plate and possibly pressure plate. Unless the radiator is fairly new have it cleaned and pressure tested. Consider new engine mounts and tranny mount bushing if not fairly recent.

Realize shops count on selling parts to make their overhead, so make sure the shop you use is OK with you supplying ancillary parts for the install (hoses, belts, etc) if you are planning to do that. I don't know what shop rates are in MT. Say 7 hours at $70/hour comes out to about $500. I figure $500-800 might be reasonable. What also matters is how quick you need it and what level of guarantee the shop will give you on final delivery. The shop that will do it for $300 might take 3 months or more!

Best of luck, Fred '74tii

[Richard]

It might be a good time to make sure there are no cracks in left engine mount

[jgerock]

Before the engine goes in:

Replace steering guibo flex coupler

Inspect/replace steering idler arm

Inspect/replace Brake lines along firewall

Replace Firewall insulating blanket

Replace Heater hoses at firewall

Inspect Booster/master cylinder

Replace/upgrade radiator (Silicon Garage 3-row)

Test the thermostat before putting the engine in the car.

[EcoAuto]

Thanks Richard, Fred, Bob S, jgerock,

Very helpful suggestions. The going rate here in Bozeman is $90 an hour. AutoWorks estimated 18 hours. Tim, the owner, knows 02s, and he serviced my car before I bought it from the prior owner.

Another local garage specializing in VWs and other European cars, estimated 15 hours, but they hadn't worked on an 02 in years.

For reference, I've attached a photo of my old Tii engine with the head and K-Fish removed. There's a fair amount of cleanup work in the engine bay to bring it up to the next level. Brake lines, booster, master cylinder and those funky orange relays.

[c.d.iesel]

there is no 'flat rate' on a 30 year old car

'flat rate' is only for 'like new' conditon cars

without rust, broken, missing, wrong,

worn out parts........

you do not want to pay someone 'any rate' for your

engine bay restoration - to match the clean

motor going in That labor should be yours.

'PARTS PLUS LABOR' is what an honest business man

should quote you

and an experienced business man should know and

be able to write you an estimate ONCE THEY HAVE

SEEN YOUR CARS CONDITION - not unseen.

[1453aalapapa]

actually, there is a cd for flat rates it is called KSD, and it has flat rate units for just about every job there is on a bmw, including install of a tii engine. however, if there are only a few shops in town, then they will go by what they want. and ksd does not specify how many minutes are in a flat rate unit, only how many units for a certain job. there is a formula the dealers are supposed to use, taking in to consideration all kinds of things, then they will come up with what THEIR unit is. a long time ago, someone decided that a unit was 6 minutes. the last i heard was that shops were using 10 minutes.

[EcoAuto]

Yes Ken, I believe that's what he was referring to. And much appreciation for your professional perspective c.d. Here's a little more detail:

I had my car towed in to the garage after the engine started making a racket following a beautiful drive. I asked the garage to remove the head and they found #3 exhaust valve stuck with the valve seat ring separated from the head just 600 miles after a head rebuild. With the head off, we could see the block and pistons are in good shape, except for a slight ridge in #3 cylinder wall. A top and lower end rebuild was recommended. But given his estimate of time and cost to rebuild, I decided installing a newly rebuilt engine from outside my area would be a more cost effective and reliable solution in the long run.

I asked if he'd work on time and materials, since I thought 20 hours seemed high for an engine install. He said I wouldn't benefit by that and it would cost more. "if you want us to just bolt in the engine, we can do that too. But you're not going to be happy."

This garage is the only game in town for Porsches, Land Rovers, Volvos BMW and Jags (none of which have factory dealers near here) and we usually wait 4-6 weeks just to get an appointment. It's a supply and demand issue (Not to mention snow pack on the roads from December to May).

[eastsidebimmer]

I just had the carbed unit on my 68 R&R for about 8 hours. I also had new clutch installed, trans swap and other items that added to the labor count, but I can't imagine it would be more than 10 with potty and smoke breaks. Alternatively, you could try it yourself and save, if you are handy.

Ben

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[Arizona02]

According to 1986 Mitchell Manual labor guide

Remove motor and install 7 hours, i.e same motor, no changes

Remove motor and install a different motor 12 hours. i.e. Long Block Assembly usually requires removing most external components from old motor, manifolds, dist , pumps. pulleys,flywheel. clutch etc, gasket surface area scrap & cleaned to install new gaskets.

[mike472]

If you have any mechanical aptitude at all do this yourself and set yourself free from the flat rate manuals. It's not that hard. The major things you need are a good jack and jack stands, an engine hoist, and a transmission jack all of which are available for about $400 from Harbor Freight. If you're going to do it, its easier dropping the engine and trans out of the bottom of the car with the subframe attached. This way you can really inspect and get at everything on your front end that needs rebuilding. No wrestling that tranny to mate up with the engine or damaging sheet metal on the way in and out of your engine compartment. Check out Bill Williams write up on the subject of the subframe with engine drop. With everything out on the ground its as easy as pie to make the swap. The hardest part is jacking your car high enough, about 35" clear of the front sheet metal. Once out of the car you can easily unbolt the engine from subframe and really clean things up easily and thoroughly.

Go for an aluminum flywheel and fresh clutch and release bearing from IE if you really want to put the icing on the cake. A five speed would be nice while you have everything out. The last couple of things are optional of course but at least freshen up the clutch. I'm sure the pilot bearing in the end of the crank was changed during the engine rebuild, but check to make sure it has been.

The other thing about this is you will have had the satisfaction of having done this yourself rather then having to rely on someone else who may not take the time and care to do everything right when working from a flat rate hourly manual trying to deliver the job at a price you will be happy with. You will also wind up with some pretty useful tools for future projects. Oh and did I mention saving money?