engine and drivetrain Kugelfischer Pump Cones

[02Nut]

OK - who has some "special" KFish Pump Cones??

I have access to a 3D scanner at work and would be game to try scanning a cone. Once we have the "point cloud" data from the scans - I'd have to bribe one of the designers to convert it to a solid model (for use in a NC tool path program).

From my vague recollection of the geometry of a KFish Pump Cone - I think it could be machined on an NC mill with rotary table OR it could be investment cast (with secondary machining).

Bottom line - once we have the part geometry data there could be multiple ways to make the part.

(I love it when stuff from my day job can be applied to my car hobby!)

[TobyB]

... and i look at that and think,

'well, shit, that's awfully primitive... now if megasquirt could

control the fuel delivery rod instead of an injector, now

THEN we'd have some accurate fuel delivery....'

oh, wait, megasquirt could easily control a KF pump...

jus' thinkin....

t

[Guest Anonymous]

... and i look at that and think,

'well, shit, that's awfully primitive... now if megasquirt could

control the fuel delivery rod instead of an injector, now

THEN we'd have some accurate fuel delivery....'

oh, wait, megasquirt could easily control a KF pump...

jus' thinkin....

t

Funny you said that (on the "primitive" part that is) was thinking the same thing, that these KF pumps have the reputation of being like "watch jewels" in the way they so accurately meter fuel and then you have this cone that has all sorts of wavy cuts and what not.....amazing it works.

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Guest Anonymous]

yeah I use a photogrammetry for 3d inputs and it works quite well for stuff like this. I'm still holding onto my racing supervee vw pump setup + ITB and want to try it out on a m10 one day. I think david redzus has a collection of them as well.

[Jeff]

For anyone seriously thinking about trying to replicate one (or more of these) its not just the cone that is different, the pistons inside are 1.0mm larger at 7.5mm and my recollection is that the head is also that much thicker (my pump is at my engine builders so I can't measure it easily), Jeff may know. I don't believe they needed to uprate the piston size in the A4 pump as the A4 doesn't make that much power (as compared with a full injected race M10, or DOHC M10 (schnitzer) or M12/7.

www.alpinabmw2002.com

The 4 racing pump cones in the photos do not rotate like a stock Tii or A4 pump cones. The racing pump is a striped down unit with no regard for low speed or part throttle running.

When I used the 43mm Schrick slide throttle on a 2.0 liter engine I used the 10 pistion fuel cam in the pump on the number 4 or 5 profile with a 7.5mm piston head pump.

The fuel mixture was never perfect in the mid rpm band of 4,000-6,000 rpm the engine was always a little rich, but was spot on in the 7,000-8,000 rpm widow.

The engine was used with both a 320 degree Alpina camshaft and a 336 degree Schrick cam. With the Schrick 336 degree camshaft in the engine we made 15 more h/p across the range from 4,000-8,100rpm over the Alpina camshaft.

I have a Alpina KF A4S pump but have not taken it apart to measure the pistons or cone, someday maybe.

-Jeff

[jgerock]

More questions (because I'm curious):

Does the M10 racing version of the KF pump use the warm-up regulator? If not, is it removed and blocked off or just left in place?

If removed, is the enrichment lever also removed?

On M10 racing engines, is there a cold start solenoid device?

ps: I did not perform a search on these topics yet.

[Jeff]

More questions (because I'm curious):

Does the M10 racing version of the KF pump use the warm-up regulator? If not, is it removed and blocked off or just left in place?

If removed, is the enrichment lever also removed?

On M10 racing engines, is there a cold start solenoid device?

ps: I did not perform a search on these topics yet.

The warm up regulator was removed and no cold start solenoid was ever needed. My engine never had a cold starting problem even on 45 degree mornings at the race track. We would just keep the idle speed up for a minute or two until some heat was in the engine.

[Mich]

Like it was told i'm pretty sure it's not that easy. I'm pretty sure that these cones are very sensitive to the other engine specs and it will not be easy to make the right settings. About the 7.5 mm pistons. I contacted a German company, i forgot the link, i think Mark gave it to me, that also rebuild KF pumps and makes also Race KF pumps and they told me that the 7.5 mm pistons are for race engines with more than 210 bhp. Otherwise i don't need them and i ca run with the stock 6.5 mm.

Their advice is to run with Webers, because those race pumps and their rebuild, spare parts are veeery expensive.

So it will be good if someday we know the exactly differences betwwen the stock TII and A4 pump and somehow to convert it to A4 pump. And after we do that we still have to find the toher parts from the A4 system.

For now i'll go with stock rebuilt tii pump with a 284 Schrick. But i will keep searching answers about this...

[Swiftus]

So it looks like some of the 'race cones' were turned on a lathe. They look like they are very uniform and circular and simply change diameter along their length.

Reproducing one of those wouldn't be too difficult.

Here is a question. With all of the potential modifications to the pump that are discussed in this thread, is there any need to modify the injectors?

Modern injectors have a given range of fuel ouput where they can reliably operate. (Ie: 2ms to 6ms) But they are electric and therfore have duty cycles etc.

What is the story with the tii and alpina mechanical injectors? Would they potentially be able to remain open forever? Sorry about the hijack. I'm just curious.

Jay

[TobyB]

Their advice is to run with Webers, because those race pumps and their rebuild, spare parts are veeery expensive.

now, that's good advice....

...unless you're playing a rules game to get the tii motor where you also have

to run mechanical injection (F Prod, for one)

t

[Creolespice]

Like it was told i'm pretty sure it's not that easy. I'm pretty sure that these cones are very sensitive to the other engine specs and it will not be easy to make the right settings. About the 7.5 mm pistons. I contacted a German company, i forgot the link, i think Mark gave it to me, that also rebuild KF pumps and makes also Race KF pumps and they told me that the 7.5 mm pistons are for race engines with more than 210 bhp. Otherwise i don't need them and i ca run with the stock 6.5 mm.

Their advice is to run with Webers, because those race pumps and their rebuild, spare parts are veeery expensive.

So it will be good if someday we know the exactly differences betwwen the stock TII and A4 pump and somehow to convert it to A4 pump. And after we do that we still have to find the toher parts from the A4 system.

For now i'll go with stock rebuilt tii pump with a 284 Schrick. But i will keep searching answers about this...

How do u like this build on your tii? I need a rebuild of my own, my guy says stock pump with 284 is good deal so I'm gonna go that route.. However I really really really want those ITBs.. Am I to understand this recipe won't produce the proper mixture?

[73touring]

Hi pat this is exactly what lucas develpments have done in the UK

[remcoseegers]

I am driving a Tii with dBilas ITB, had the M16 made for the injectors. I used the dBilas manifold as the Ti manifold will make the ITB touch the pump. The ITB´s have external inlet after the throttle (cylinder head side) and I use those inlets for injecting cold start and extra air on cold start. I am running it with a Schrick 284 and an original pump. The car is quite fast.

 

The only thing I need now is an Alpina-like airbox, dopes anybody know one?

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2015 by remcoseegers

[willys]

great job, that was fun to watch - what are you using for a tranny and diff?

 

Jeff

[remcoseegers]

Normal 4 speed and the diff, I just don´t know. It is a LSD though