Game Changer for S-14 Swaps

[AceAndrew]

@Tommy  Thankfully, once we go this road there's lots of options.

 

I guess I don't get how the 02 spirit is supposedly retained using a much newer dual cam Japanese motor.  After driving one I could tell that the character was definitely not of an "02" anymore.  It's a great combo, but the M20 felt much more in keeping with the car's character..... (as it was used in the 02's successive model, the very next year of production).

 

 

[M3M3]

9 hours ago, M3This said:

My plan was all along to do a S14 but not with the prices I’m 2nd guessing that. I went looking but couldn’t find any threads comparing built M10 and built M20 swaps and how they compare to a S14. Anyone have any info they can link me too?  Ideally I would like a set up around 200-220hp and with efi 

As a guy with two s14 powered cars in the garage, the s14 is good for two things.  Blasting around a track, or winning a cars and coffee.  Power is all above 5k rpm.  It is a slug is any street driving environment.  Drive an e30 325 and an e30 M3 back to back and it is immediately apparent the m20 is a much better engine for use on the street in stock form.  If more hp is wanted, m20 also a far cheaper path.

[COOP]

For me, there’s just nothing like an S14, especially in 2.5L stroker form. They’re expensive because they’re increasingly rare & are hugely iconic, the winningest motor in the history of DTM racing. If all that means nothing to you, or if the value doesn’t align with your resources (both perfectly understandable and fine), then yeah, it’s definitely not the right choice. For me, just opening the hood every time, seeing that beautiful engine and thinking about everything it represents to BMW and to global motorsports, makes it all worthwhile.  Definitely not for everyone though, I get it, but the people laying out the big dollars for S14s are not doing it so they can make a bunch of money flipping engines/cars (that’s just silly), they’re doing it because of what the motor represents to them and to automotive history.  I recently bought a complete spare S14 for $10K (right place/right time I guess) and am hoping to find a new Sport Evo block with its extra webbing reinforcement and special oiling & piston squirters. Hard to find and easily $8K just for the bare block, ouch!

 

[M3This]

10 hours ago, AceAndrew said:

There are not many direct comparisons .... I suspect one of the camps would be less inclined.

 

Here's an interesting clip though ... two quick drag pulls featuring a stock 2.5L M20 swapped 2002 and a stroker 2.5L S14 E30M3

 

 

 

 

Also .... spent a long time developing the humbly-named Ultimate Street Stroker M20 (2.9L) Engine.  It'll get you a zippy 220-235whp w/ near OEM reliability, sound amazing, and look period correct (being part of the single-cam engine line).  Not cheap, but very very very fun.  If that swap is one you want to explore, i'm happy to help answer questions.

 

BMW M20 - Ultimate Street Stroker Engine Checklist (adamsautosport.com)

 

 

Food for thought ... so much fun to be had!

out of curiosity what kind of ballpark would I be looking at for M20 stroker with ITBs and EFI like pictured? How much heavier is the M20 over the M10 with the extra cylinders?

[M3This]

2 hours ago, COOP said:

For me, there’s just nothing like an S14, especially in 2.5L stroker form. They’re expensive because they’re increasingly rare & are hugely iconic, the winningest motor in the history of DTM racing. If all that means nothing to you, or if the value doesn’t align with your resources (both perfectly understandable and fine), then yeah, it’s definitely not the right choice. For me, just opening the hood every time, seeing that beautiful engine and thinking about everything it represents to BMW and to global motorsports, makes it all worthwhile.  Definitely not for everyone though, I get it, but the people laying out the big dollars for S14s are not doing it so they can make a bunch of money flipping engines/cars (that’s just silly), they’re doing it because of what the motor represents to them and to automotive history.  I recently bought a complete spare S14 for $10K (right place/right time I guess) and am hoping to find a new Sport Evo block with its extra webbing reinforcement and special oiling & piston squirters. Hard to find and easily $8K just for the bare block, ouch!

 

Everything you said is exactly why I romance about the idea of the S14. I don’t mind paying $10k for one and then rebuilding it and having $15-18k into it but there is no way in hell I’m paying $20k for a motor not rebuilt. 

[MOESPEED2002]

2 hours ago, M3This said:

Everything you said is exactly why I romance about the idea of the S14. I don’t mind paying $10k for one and then rebuilding it and having $15-18k into it but there is no way in hell I’m paying $20k for a motor not rebuilt. 

 

M3This

 

If you have a motor builder that could do it for 5-8K. Id find another motor builder.

 

Now if your talking about locating a donor for 10K and throwing 12K in parts and a solid builder. Sure that sounds (crazy yes) but realistic.

 

In all fairness the BAT S14 in question has solid compression numbers. Is complete with trans and ecu harness and also didn't have a spec of oil anywhere. Did he detail it for the pictures, I'm sure he did. Honestly, pull the pan since it's best to anyways and inspect. Measure and change the rod bearings. Sell the trans unless you want to use it and drive the living piss out of it. Although you could beat the piss out of an m20 2.9 stroker too as Ace has stated, but would also love to compare what $$$ the apples to oranges would be. Guessing not a "cheap" swap either, being "cheap" is completely subjective as the reason for a 4 page topic currently.

 

That is what I did 14 years ago and have been enjoying every living moment with her ever since. As Coop stated, I enjoy the history that BMW brought to the world at that time with the S14. It really just between an M10 on steroids and the M12.

 

Just my 02 cents

 

Between the the motor swap and installing a 245/10 CR. 18K isn't that far off. I installed new timing rails, rod bearings and fresh seals, regular oil and filter changes and that's about it.

 

Moe

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by MOESPEED2002

[Lorin]

14 hours ago, M3This said:

My plan was all along to do a S14 but not with the prices I’m 2nd guessing that. I went looking but couldn’t find any threads comparing built M10 and built M20 swaps and how they compare to a S14. Anyone have any info they can link me too?  Ideally I would like a set up around 200-220hp and with efi 

A stock E30 with a 2.5 M20 and the same final drive as the E30 M3 (4.11) will out accelerate a stock E30 M3 (S14) to 60 mph. 

[ray_]

6 hours ago, M2M3 said:

As a guy with two s14 powered cars in the garage, the s14 is good for two things.  Blasting around a track, or winning a cars and coffee.  Power is all above 5k rpm.  It is a slug is any street driving environment.  Drive an e30 325 and an e30 M3 back to back and it is immediately apparent the m20 is a much better engine for use on the street in stock form.  If more hp is wanted, m20 also a far cheaper path.

Yeah, but the 2.5 is a whole different animal.  

 

The 2.3 on the street doesn't compare...

[M3M3]

1 minute ago, ray_ said:

Yeah, but the 2.5 is a whole different animal.  

back to my comment...

" If more hp is wanted, m20 also a far cheaper path."

?

[ray_]

30 minutes ago, M2M3 said:

back to my comment...

" If more hp is wanted, m20 also a far cheaper path."

?

Yeah, but M20.

 

???

 

(Andrew, no offense!)

 

No, I wouldn't do it again either.  I've run the car on the street for 2 decades and it's still not for sale. ?

[irdave]

6 hours ago, COOP said:

For me, there’s just nothing like an S14, especially in 2.5L stroker form. They’re expensive because they’re increasingly rare & are hugely iconic, the winningest motor in the history of DTM racing. If all that means nothing to you, or if the value doesn’t align with your resources (both perfectly understandable and fine), then yeah, it’s definitely not the right choice. For me, just opening the hood every time, seeing that beautiful engine and thinking about everything it represents to BMW and to global motorsports, makes it all worthwhile.  Definitely not for everyone though, I get it, but the people laying out the big dollars for S14s are not doing it so they can make a bunch of money flipping engines/cars (that’s just silly), they’re doing it because of what the motor represents to them and to automotive history.  I recently bought a complete spare S14 for $10K (right place/right time I guess) and am hoping to find a new Sport Evo block with its extra webbing reinforcement and special oiling & piston squirters. Hard to find and easily $8K just for the bare block, ouch!

 

 

2nd pic is a little newer, huh? 

[COOP]

15 minutes ago, irdave said:

 

2nd pic is a little newer, huh? 

?

[AceAndrew]

4 hours ago, M3This said:

out of curiosity what kind of ballpark would I be looking at for M20 stroker with ITBs and EFI like pictured? How much heavier is the M20 over the M10 with the extra cylinders?

 

For the fully rebuilt U.S.S. M20B29 w/ITB's it's about 9k-12k including donor motor.  Shop labor/fab and auxiliary component costs are a wash between the two engine options.

 

The weight difference (assuming battery relocation and aluminum radiator) is about 30lbs along the centerline and comparatively lower to the ground.   Just spent an hour searching for photo I took showing the M10, M20, and M30 valve covers next to eachother.  Will EDIT this post when I find it.

 

For a couple shops to talk to in the NW (IF you're going to have shop work done), I have a couple recommendations via PM.

[MOESPEED2002]

Ace,

 

This is great information. 10K motor build sound very reasonable for the caliber. Now add engine compartment fab, motor mounts, etc, etc, etc.... It starts to add up and could be a wash. Whoever dives down the rabbit hole, its up to the individual and their abilities. Whether financially or by sweat equity would they be able to justify their build. It's awesome either way due to the same common goal of affection to the 02.

 

On a side note, either direction, it's going to be one excitingly fast, and fun reliable classic, that dare I'd say, could be a daily. I will never judge or frown any build for the pure and simple fact that each build shouldn't be gauged on what someone thinks it should cost.

 

BTW, off topic, I need to reach out to you Andrew about some suspension.....KW specific. Thanks. 

 

Moe

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by MOESPEED2002

[MOESPEED2002]

2 hours ago, M2M3 said:

back to my comment...

" If more hp is wanted, m20 also a far cheaper path."

?

 

So true. 

 

I haven't ran around with M20 builds on track. There has always been the debate of 6 vs 4 in the 02 regarding balance. I believe the 02 would benefit from moving the current m10 back due to their 55/45 bias. Although I have been around E30s and fair well with them. E30s with an S52 not so much.

 

So it maybe safe to say an 02 with a 6 would be awesome street/strip car if that's what your into.

 

Solid either way.

 

Moe

 

2150lb on R-comps w/186rwhp is no slouch.