Is This Beautiful...or What!

[PaulTWinterton]

4 hours ago, Slavs said:

I'm not afflicted with "tii" fever

 

If you're talking about the uncurbed enthusiasm of us tii FAQers, you're absolutely correct.  We are afflicted and it's because we are owners.  Kinda like we love our children.  We can't help it.  Same with all models, right? 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by PaulTWinterton

[Slavs]

14 hours ago, PaulTWinterton said:

If you're talking about the uncurbed enthusiasm of us tii FAQers, you're absolutely correct.  We are afflicted and it's because we are owners.  Kinda like we love our children.  We can't help it.  Same with all models, right? 

 

Paul,

 

No hard feelings. I get you. But, you gotta admit, this whole "tii" thing has gained a life of its own. And. I'm just making light of it.

 

The "tii" is a great car, though. But, it wasn't BMW's workhorse like the "Plane Jane" 1600 and 2002. It's not the "People's 02",Nope !There are more things that can go wrong with it. The mechanical fuel injection components are pricey and take up a lot of room in the engine compartment etc.

 

In my student days I drove a 68 BMW 1600. I loved the car for its simplicity, including the mechanical clutch. It was one less messy hydraulic system to repair. I just carried spare clutch linkage levers or rods in the eventuality that one of them brakes. It was hell of a lot easier and less expensive to repair than replacing a worn out clutch master and / or slave. It's like comparing a Kalashnikov Rifle such as an AK 47 to a M16 or the newer M4. If I'm out in the dusty bush and elements, I'll take the AK any day over the fickle M16.

 

The single barrel Solex lasted 50 years of continuous use with little maintenance and cleaning.You can't say the same about the Kugelfischer injection. And, when the Solex goes "South", it's a hell of a lot cheaper and easier to replace. There are two 12mm nuts holding the single barrel in place. Loosen them and the carb is off. And, you have plenty of room to work on everything.You see, I'm looking at this from the perspective of that once 22 year old starving student using his 02 as basic transportation and keeping it on the road on a budget. That's why the majority of 02s produced by the factory were simple utilitarian cars, unlike the "Tii" and Alfa with its Spica mechanical injection. That's why the 02 succeeded. The "tii" was a special model for the "Enthusiast" like the GTV Alfa. And, you are the proud owner of one of those cars.

 

And these Kracker Jack outfits who get a hold of a supposedly virgin mileage "tii"  and "Restore" it and present it as the wholly grail of 02s are only playing on the current trend, or "uncurbed enthusiasm" as you coined it, of the 02 community. And, in the end they have the audacity to affix their badge or tag to the engine compartment. There are all types of snake oil salesmen out there, and these ones are playing on the sentiments of people afflicted with "tii" fever. Beware ! That is my gut instinct. I'm not impressed by them or their presentations.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Slavs

[PaulTWinterton]

No offense taken.

 

In 1978, when I was driving some Detroit Iron, a preppy-young-stockbroker-buddy of mine was gaga over a "BMW 2002tii" that I had the opportunity to buy.  I am reminded of him when I see young dudes driving late model M3s.

 

My point is, worthy or not, the tii represented Motorsport of the era.  That charisma still exists today.

 

BTW the fuel injection system is quite reliable once dialed-in and IMO the majority of Kugelfischer pumps that are in use today are still unrestored and performing well. That's 45 years.  

 

I must admit I'd love the A4 Alpina KF injection system over the stock intake system but we can't have everything. 

 

I can't disagree with your take on opportunists.   We just have to try keep them honest 

 

I don't know the 1600 very well but I understand the attraction.   I believe in "less is more".   Really cool simplicity yet still a fun car.

 

The 1600 sold on BAT recently looked like it was done well and sold at a reasonable price.   What did you think?

[Slavs]

Well, I followed that auction closely and made a few comments regarding my observations;

 

First, the car appeared as a solid and clean 66 with many of the original 66 specific parts still in place. But, some were missing, most notably the 1600 badge on the top dash pad. This sounds trivial, as the badge is still available, but it is the first thing that captures your eye in the interior. The 66 specific top dash pad has two holes in it reinforced with sheet metal, to which the badge is affixed with its pins going clearly through the dash. The original dash pad probably cracked, so they replaced it with the next best thing; the top dash piece from a 67-71 02. One could always cut the pins off the badge and glue it to the newer dash. Nobody, including the concours judges would know the difference.

 

What concerned me was all the black, tar like undercoating which was liberally applied to the under carriage. It was slopped all over the place including the springs. The car spent most of its life in Sweden, and evidently this is a common practice over there considering they pour salt on the roads during winter. No rust was evident anywhere, in the photos, which is rare and unusual for a 66. I suspect the car was garaged during winter months. Some people do this in Europe to save their cars as for many the car isn't primary transportation, but rather a bonus or luxury. My gut instinct tells me the car is solid, but you never know what's underneath all that goop.

 

On the very early cars, 66-67, BMW often used two tone interiors. The rare Grey ./ Black two tone seats were usually matched with the Grey / black door panels. This wasn't the case on this 66 which had all black door panels and two tone Grey / Black seats. This may be one of the original combinations, but I'm not sure. I would come across a 66 at the wrecking yards from time to time, and I immediately recognized their uniqueness, even compared to the 67. On one occasion I came across an all original Turf Green 66 with light grey seats and two tone Grey / black door panels. The interior upholstery and colors were from another era (BMW's NK era) and much classier and prettier in appearance. Even the early vinyl was of better quality.

 

The car had a replacement exhaust system associated with most 02s through the round tail light era. But, the 66-67 resonators and muffler were different and routed slightly differently. The muffler, in particular, was of higher quality construction and probably proved too expensive for later serial production. This was the case with many other items including drive line components and trim. While BMW improved on some things, a lot of the changes were made to cut costs. For example, the early long neck diffs were a much better design and more practical, being easier to maintain and holding more oil, but more expensive in comparison to the later short necks introduced in mid 69. And, the trim on the early cars was of higher quality. Some of the pieces were embossed, the interior mirror was polished aluminum and completely different from that of later 02s. Glove box mechanism, dash and chromed metal bits and pieces etc. were later replaced with plastic. For a purist, these details, including the muffler, are a must, but this car was a driver, and they stopped manufacturing the early 66-67 muffler in 69. There are some floating out there as NOS parts, though. 

 

The 66 cars were unique examples of the clean design first envisioned by the designer. This is still evident in the 67, but by 68, especially in the US, the 1600 was on its way from diverging from the original and clean design. BMW didn't equip the 66-68 1600s with sway bars, but provisions for mounting the front sway bar were in place. It's the first thing I did to my 68, and it made a HUGE difference in the manner the  car handled. The 66 at auction lacked sway bars. There were no provisions for mounting a rear sway bar on a 66-68.

 

The seat belt was mounted high on the "B" pillar. And, I've never seen this on any pre-70 02. The seat belts may have been retrofitted. The high mount detracts from the cars otherwise clean lines.

 

The car had the original 6V battery and electrical system.

 

In the Porsche and VW world the earliest incarnations with the simplest and cleanest lines are the most sought after examples by collectors. They are also the most expensive. But, this is not the case with the 02. I think it's changing somewhat, though. And, I believe that in the future, the very early 1600s such as this 66 will command the highest prices. I have never come across a 66 in such good shape. I've only seen them at the wrecking yards 25 years ago. I've never even seen one at the BMW shows. The BMW museum may have one on display.

 

Considering the recent prices, it was a good deal at $21,500 for the earliest and purest example of an 02. But, you got to be a big risk taker to purchase a car from overseas without closely inspecting it. It is a numbers matching car, but the seller only presented this after I inquired. I got the sense that the seller had a low reserve on this car and was just trying to sell it. I didn't mention the $3,500 - $4.000 in shipping and other fees to the West Coast. It's cheaper to import pre-68 cars as the later 68 safety and smog regulations were not in place, hence no expensive conversion fees. 

 

1600s are completely different animals than 2002s. They are short stroke high reving motors which are much more comfortable at high rpm's compared to a 2 liter. The torque curve is sharper and there is a lack of that mid range torque of the 2 liter. But, they are no slouches, either. And, in some ways they're more fun to drive. BMWs first vision for the M10 was a short stroke motor like that of the 1600. And, the short stroke configuration was never dropped as it was used in the 1802 and 1.8L US spec 1980-83 320i along with the E30 318. It's a really smooth and sweet motor. With fuel injection it has better mid range than the carb version and is very economical. Revs are up, but mean piston speeds are down; less ware on the cylinder walls, rings bearings. An incarnation of the short stroke motor was used for BMW's winning Formula 1 engine during the early 80s.

 

The 2002s mid range torque and taller gearing proved more practical for the US roads, though. That's why they phased out the 1600 for the US market at the end of 71.

 

Most people in the 02 community are  fixated on the 2002 and "tii" and have no idea about the 66. They lump all 1600s together. But, there is actually more variation in the 1600 from 66-76 than there is in the 2002 from 68-76. The earlier NK sedans are of higher build quality than the 02 series. And, the 66-67 1600, especially the 66, retained much of NKs higher and more expensive build quality. Many "tii" owners are surprised to learn that the "tii" engine was actually developed and built in 68 and first used in the 2000tii sedan in 1969, a car with a much higher build quality than the 2002tii, first introduced in 72, 3-4 years later.

 

Within the 2002 range, the first year, 1968, 2002 is of higher build quality in comparison to the later 02s. It retains the long neck diff and a really nice and well balanced telescopic driveshaft with grease nipple fittings on the U-joints. Even the "Bus" steering wheel is of much better quality than the similar wheel used on 69 and later cars. There are other details as well. "Tii" owners sometimes boast of the beefier brake and suspension components such as the larger front wheel bearings, but even most BMW mechanics and parts vendors are unaware that the early 1600s (66-68) and possibly the 68 2002, also have larger front wheel bearings ( Not as large as the tii bearings which are 4mm larger than the standard 02, but still larger by 2mm). BMW mechanics are often in for a rude surprise when they attempt to install the smaller 2002 bearings on the larger 1600 hub. A few people in the BMW community have suggested to me that the diminutive 1600 lacks a forged crankshaft. But, this is not the case since they confuse the later non-forged 71mm crankshafts of the 1.8L e21s and e30s with the earlier 71mm forged cranks of the 1600. The early 1600s lack the power of the 2002s, but they are of higher build quality.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Slavs

[PaulTWinterton]

Thanks Slavs.  Great summary.

[Dug Nichols]

On 9/15/2020 at 9:01 AM, BarneyT said:

Love it, my next project is a 72tii Ceylon...starting in November.

@BarneyT I remember seeing this car for sale. I have family in AZ and was contemplating checking it out. So curious to know how it's sorting out! Also, those wheels are super cool! Drool..

[SydneyTii]

My Tii has the same pump and injectors it had when new, it’s 46 years old, it still performs remarkably well.

Ive just taken the plenum, runners, inlet manifold, WUR, throttle body, and linkages  off in about 30 mins, I’m vapour blasting my parts, but to be fair the Tii is utterly set and forget performance for an 02 should you want it to be, once you understand the injection it’s fairly simple.

There has been all flavours of 02’s in my family (I loved the A4s best, so much torque).

The worse one I had was an Auto with the bloody awful “automatic” choke, the only thing it did was automatically go wrong.

I did like my early Colorado RRL though, great simple car, used to eat freeways..,,

Edited October 4, 2020 by SydneyTii

[Slavs]

I said what I don't like about the "tii", but what I like about it is that a bone stock "tii" with the 264 degree stock cam, a four speed and 3.64 open diff will in most cases utterly outperform and run away from most hopped up home grown 2002s with high compression pistons, more aggressive cam, Weber side drafts, tight 3.90LSD diff and 5 speed overdrive. And, while doing so, it will get much better mileage.

[Mike A]

^^^ well , that just may be a testimonial to my project goal.  Thank you Slav

[jgerock]

20 hours ago, Slavs said:

I said what I don't like about the "tii", but what I like about it is that a bone stock "tii" with the 264 degree stock cam, a four speed and 3.64 open diff will in most cases utterly outperform and run away from most hopped up home grown 2002s with high compression pistons, more aggressive cam, Weber side drafts, tight 3.90LSD diff and 5 speed overdrive. And, while doing so, it will get much better mileage.

Rev a stock tii up and it will go like hell. I've had my stock tii on the race track at 112-115 mph. Very fun. 

 

I just re-watched the old movie "Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry" today on Amazon.  A Sheriff's office has access to a new police interceptor (Dodge with what appears to be a Hi-Po 440 engine).  Deputy asks the mechanic about the top end of the vehicle... mechanic says "Unlimited". 

[maxpower]

that color is perfect. almost too clean to drive though.