Looking at getting into racing

[AustrianVespaGuy]

Thanks @Preyupy and @redrumm3, that all seems like very sound advice.  And I will be honest upfront: I actually don't (currently) care all that much about being highly competitive; it's more about just getting the seat time, getting experience with other drivers out on the track, and improving my own driving.  Those goals are far more important to me than any finishing rankings, which is why I'm keen on the street/track idea. Being so close I don't see the need for a tow vehicle and trailer just to get out and have some fun driving every month or two.  But who knows, maybe that will change as time goes on, but I think that's still where I want to start.  Incidentally, I just signed up for the CCAs HDPE coming up in October, and we have another Chumpcar race in August.  I'm think I'll target the racing school for around the end of the year sometime.  I'm also not in a terrible hurry or anything, so will certainly take the time to read up, talk to people, and do things 'right' / safely.  Thanks again for all the advice!

[M3M3]

Don't take a racing school until you are at least at the upper intermediate level in hpde.  Learn how to drive fast before learning to race.  They are different skills and one is a prerequisite of the other.

 

Hpde's are priceless.  You have an instructor in the car with you for real time feedback.   Race schools and racing you have nobody with you.   Not the same level of learning. 

 

Thinking you can drive a race car to the track is fools logic.   

- race cars break.   And need spare parts,  gas,  tires,  tools and more.   None of which will fit in the race car.   Part of racing cost is a trailer and tow vehicle.  There is no such thing as cheap or low cost racing.  Gotta embrace that concept up front. 

- never bring anything on a race track you can't mentally or financially walk away from when it gets balled up in turn one. 

- race cars are not safe on the street

- street cars suck as race cars.  Wish I had a dollar for every student who said the were not concerned about being competitive.   If you were not concerned about being competitive,  you would not want to race.  Racing is competition.   If you are on track and not focused on winning, you are a speed bump and a danger to those that are. 

 

This advice comes from an SCCA competition and HPDE instructor with 20yrs racing experience.

[Preyupy]

You will get more driving time in 1 day at a HPDE than at 2 weekends of “racing”. At a regional race you will get 4 sessions of 20 minutes  each spread out over 2 days. The average HPDE  will get you 4-5 sessions in 1day. I agree with mlytle the more time you spend with an instructor in the passenger seat giving immediate feedback the faster you will learn. 

[TobyB]

On top of all that:

 

BUY YOUR FIRST RACE CAR.  

Don't buy a car with a cage, buy a 

mid-pack spec miata, spec e46 (my personal recommendation)

or something else with restrictive rules, prep level 2, whatever.

One with 20+ finishes (any real racer will be able to show those).

 

You'll spend 10c on every dollar the guy before you spent, 

and you can then focus on racing, not the car, not tuning.

You will not win.  You should NOT hit people, because at first,

you don't want to be fixing the car.

 

Scca.org, carsandrules, look at all 600+ pages of the GCR.

Even if you run Nasa or whomever, the GCR has a lot to show you.

Not all of it positive.

 

I bought a 2002 race car, and at the time, regionally, there were a

few people running in class at my times.  So we had a few good seasons.

Then a spec class dropped into 'ours', and killed it.

Nationally, we were poo anyways.

So look carefully at where you'll end up.

 

Renting is very good, if somewhat high- risk.

 

Spending time at the track, in a car, in the paddock, working corners,

all of it is time well spent. And do about 6000 laps before you race.

And from watching real racing, learn as many lines as you can.

 

Because I can pass a faster HDPEer in ANY corner if they 

drive 'the line'....

 

t

 

ps, your budget IS controllable.  But car choice and class choice drives it.

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by TobyB

[AustrianVespaGuy]

Alright, so all of this taken together I think leads me to the basic advice of: just do a lot more HDPE stuff before actually diving in to racing.  Sound about right?  I will still check out all of the rules and classes and may very well still get a separate track car for said HDPEing that will also let me get familiar with that particular model/class while I go.

[TobyB]

That's how I did it.   Racing evolved naturally from that.  And

yes, a track car and eventually tire trailer will help you learn.

 

t

 

[kaptanoglu]

15 hours ago, redrumm3 said:

A. You need to be really honest with yourself about what you are willing to spend to go racing. It costs a lot.

B. You will need to get more track driving experience than what you currently have to get a racing license with any sanctioning body other than ChampCar. I think professional racing schools can be a real benefit to drivers if they come into it with a lot of track experience. It is needed to really take advantage of the education they are offering.

C. Realistically a race/street car will not work. If you want to race you will need a dedicated car. Otherwise your just kidding yourself.
 

 

I agree with these points, and will pile on a little more:

• If you want to race, you can either "arrive and drive" (with Chump, or someone else), or you can own your own car.  There are tradeoffs to each, but renting a seat with a competitive Chump team is the most economic way to race.  I have run with RBank Racing a few times (and won at RA out of a jillion cars), and have had great luck there
• A safe race car is unsafe on the street.  In a crash, unless you have your HANS and belts on, you are going to hit your cage (maybe with your unprotected head).  Give up on that idea.  Also, a well set up race car will have you peeing blood if you drive it on the street.  Just don't go down that path.
• Best ways to get (relatively) cheap, competitive racing
  • Chump (either A&D, or build your own car/team - good car selection, preparation and (especially) smart race craft can be a blast).  WRL and AER offer a faster experience for more money (AFAIK).  Lemons offers a different experience for the same money.
  • Spec E30 is big in the SE IIRC, and would be a GREAT way to get into it.  Bonus points in that you could run in Chump as well (though likely with penalty laps or in EC)
  • Spec Miata is the other fantastic (relatively) inexpensive class.  If I could fit in one, I'd own one
• Options to license
  • Go to an SCCA racing school (either A&D or bring your own car, though it will have to pass tech) - Cheapest, least instructive
  • Do a multi day school at RA (or somewhere else) with Skip Barber, or similar - Highly recommended.  Not the cheapest, but you learn a lot, and can then get an SCCA competition license (as well as BMW CCA, if you head that way)
  • Just run Chump - many do this, but you will be much better served getting some intense instruction.  You learn a lot about managing in traffic in Chump, but will learn a lot more about going fast in a proper learning environment

Good luck!

[EvilEmpire]

So like you I foolishly decided I wanted to race. My project 2002 is now just going to be street and HPDE car. 3 weeks ago I bought a 76 race prepped 2002. Just that it was race prepped for SCCA ITB about 20+ yrs ago. Many things needed or needs to be updated to current racing specs. Mostly fix the cage to current door bar requirements, Put in new racing seat and harnesses, proper cage padding, Fire Suppression, move the battery cutoff into the car, move the battery to safer location....

Plan is to run COMSCC Time trials, Vintage events and Local Champ/Lemons.

I've done few of HPDE and some time trial events. 

I just completed Bertil Roos 3 day racing course at Lime Rock Park (they bought most of the Skip Barber school assets and instructors). So completely worth it. Learned so much about car control, how to look at race track, evaluate your line and planning escape if you screw up. Also qualifies me to get my SVRA license. 

 

So that's how I'm starting. Keeping the car basic, want the cheapest most available parts, because things will break or wear out.

[irdave]

23 hours ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

Alright, so all of this taken together I think leads me to the basic advice of: just do a lot more HDPE stuff before actually diving in to racing.  Sound about right?  I will still check out all of the rules and classes and may very well still get a separate track car for said HDPEing that will also let me get familiar with that particular model/class while I go.

 

I think doing more and more HDPE stuff *is* the beginning of getting into racing.  I think that's generally the way to start...

 

And as has been said, be very careful taking anything onto the track that you're not willing to throw in the dumpster at the end of the day.  Anecdote; had an Aprilia RSV Mille (spanky Italian moto) that I took to the track a lot for track days (street bike.)  Finally bought a POS cbr600f2 and put real suspension and tires on it- immediately went way faster, had more fun and less cares about any of it- because it was a cheap POS that I just didn't care about...

[TobyB]

14 hours ago, irdave said:

 

I think doing more and more HDPE stuff *is* the beginning of getting into racing.  I think that's generally the way to start...

 

And as has been said, be very careful taking anything onto the track that you're not willing to throw in the dumpster at the end of the day.  Anecdote; had an Aprilia RSV Mille (spanky Italian moto) that I took to the track a lot for track days (street bike.)  Finally bought a POS cbr600f2 and put real suspension and tires on it- immediately went way faster, had more fun and less cares about any of it- because it was a cheap POS that I just didn't care about...

It's certainly a good way.  But 9 out of 10 hdpe'ers don't become racers, for various reasons.

 

And it's a very different environment/ culture.  Hdpe'ers, myself included, take some adjustment.

 

And likewise, going back isn't often an option:

 

-You threw gravel up in t5

-You're a wuss 'cause you DON'T! There are 3 tenths there, every time.

 

t

[AustrianVespaGuy]

Coming back to this thread now that I've sorted a few things out!  Basically after this years Chumpcar driving, I've decided sticking with HDPE is more my style than all out racing.  In short, I found I'm content to wait for a point-by rather than trying to dive 4 wide into a corner with three other knuckleheads.  I have also acquired a stripped-but-otherwise-tired-stock E30 325iS for my event car.  Only have one weekend of CCA driving school in it so far, but that was enough to reveal that with a full suspension overhaul and safety gear, I think I'll be happy with it in that role for a while!  Thanks again to everyone here for the great tips to get me pointed in the right direction!

[Brandon]

I raced my ‘72 Tii for nine years...hopefully you have deeeeeeep pockets!  It ain’t cheap, you will go through numerous engines/trannies/diffs/suspension components/tires/brakes...and every five years or so, harnesses, Hans devices/helmets, etc because they go out of date.  With those expenses come fees to get onto the track.  Also I would buy your wife a brand new Mercedes first so she doesn’t say anything about the money your spending on yourself racing!  Old cars break all the time especially when your driving them at the limit on the track,  in my experience you’re better off financially to buy a newer car and race that...modern technology is way better and way more dependable than what they had in the 70s....plus newer cars have more HP and better brakes and suspension right out of the box.  With that said a 2002 is a great car to learn on because it doesn’t have all the modern driver aids so you get that seat of the pants feedback which help you become a better driver.

 

Start with DEs (driver education) through whatever car club you can get on the track with and do a lot of them so you get the experience to move up to solo. Track time is everything...the more you’re on the track the better you will become.  This will get you entry into club racing where the fun is!

[ray_]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

Also I would buy your wife a brand new Mercedes first so she doesn’t say anything about the money your spending on yourself racing!

 

 

That's a really generous offer!