Perpetual starting issue

[2002Scoob]

My suggestion was purely based off my researching from previous posts regarding installing 441’s.

 

Not sure the wire gauge... you’d want something rated for under-hood conditions.

 

If ya didn’t want to cut your harness making a short lead is a great idea, but you want it to have one end with a ring terminal and the other with a male spade terminal.

 

All that said, the starter I ended up with turned out to have facilities for both spade and ring terminal connections, so for me no modifications were needed. 100% plug and play

 

 

 

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[ibewebbman]

I suggest adding a new / checking that you have good clean ground strap from block to body / battery if you have not done so already. You may well have several issues that are manafesting themselves as you stated but this is something easy to eliminate as a variable and much odd behavior can be traced back to crummy old grounding.

[mataku527]

Finally got the starter in, things always sound easy until you are dealing with rusted on parts and you are working in the rain.  I was able to get the car started and it did seem to make a difference.  One question though:

 

- Upon connecting up the new starter, I realized I did have two connectors that go to the starter motor.  One is a plug that comes from the alternator, I plugged that into the bottom tab.  

- The other is a blue cable -comes from a cable I can't trace, but it splits and one goes to the bottom of the intake manifold.  Where should this connector attach?  From reading the thread, it appears it's supposed to provide 12V to the coil, but doesn't seem it's needed so mine is left disconnected for the time being.

 

 

Thanks again.

 

Also bonus question so I don't have to start a new thread - what size is the water choke hoses? I realized they were quite cracked when removing the starter.

Edited October 30, 2017 by mataku527

[mataku527]

Was able to do two test runs today, one was cut short since I had to get some coolant after letting a bunch of mine leak out.  The difference is amazing, easily the best thing I've done for the car so far.  I had issues with initial cold start on my weber 32/26, now - even with the low fall temperatures, the car starts on the first turn within 1-2 seconds.  Maybe it's compensating for other issues, but loving it so far.

[torquewrench80]

1 hour ago, mataku527 said:

Was able to do two test runs today, one was cut short since I had to get some coolant after letting a bunch of mine leak out.  The difference is amazing, easily the best thing I've done for the car so far.  I had issues with initial cold start on my weber 32/26, now - even with the low fall temperatures, the car starts on the first turn within 1-2 seconds.  Maybe it's compensating for other issues, but loving it so far.

Yeah! The new starter draws less current/amperage which means there is more available current for the rest of the car. I have seen cars towed in that would crank but not start that were diagnosed to a weak battery. Enough power in the battery to crank it, but not enough left to power the ignition system/fuel injection. A defective starter does the same thing. I'm reasonably sure your engine now cranks faster than before too, just another benefit.

Edited October 30, 2017 by torquewrench80
additional notation.

[mataku527]

Well I spoke too soon. Yesterday it started but was idling rough until it warmed up, which I figured was normal since the weather has been down to the 30s here.  Today I started it up, and it got going right away, though again was rough.  I didn't let it warm up as long and tried to get going but only made it about 50ft before it died and couldn't get it started again.  It would crank really well but not turn over.  I had to get somewhere so left it sitting for about 2 hours.  

 

Again I tried to start and it wouldn't.  I then thought maybe it was because I didn't attach that other connector that I believe goes from the start to the coil.  I attached it to the top connector on the starter.  It also connects to various places on the intake manifold.  I cranked it and it would give signs like it was going to turn over but would just immediately die.  I did this two times and then looked in the engine compartment to find some smoke near my coil and find this.  The wire was super hot and the insulation had burned off part of it.  I disconnected the part at the top connector on the starter again, and gave it another shot.  This time, it started.  

 

I'm now at a lost - it seems almost like a fuel issue, which makes me think fuel pump or carburetor.  But then the fact that it started to turn over with the other connector made me think it could be coil/ignition related.  I do have a petronix on it, timing has been adjusted. 

 

This will be the 5th time I thought I found the issue..... 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by mataku527

[2002Scoob]

Vacuum leak? Did you forget to refit your brake booster line after replacing the starter?


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[mataku527]

I never actually disconnected the brake booster and it most recently started fine and I was able to drive it around.  

['76mintgrün'02]

3 hours ago, mataku527 said:

 I do have a petronix on it, timing has been adjusted.

Could you give a little more detail about the timing adjustment?

How is your Pertronix wired?  

 

Looking at your photo, I see red and black wires that look like Pertronix leads.

 

Pertronix wants 3 ohms of resistance.  Blue coils usually have internal resistors, which put them at ~3 ohms, but black and red coils typically require external resistors.  Early cars used ceramic ballast resistors, but the later cars used a resistor wire, which lives in one of the little blue bundles of wires.

 

Based on the grilles shown in your avatar, you have a square light car, which may have the resistor wire, or it DID... assuming it did not just melt.  I see that your coil is mounted near the firewall though, so maybe it should  have the ceramic block style resistor (?).  Although that little unused wire hanger on the inner fender may imply that the coil has been moved back, from a forward position...

 

When installing the Pertronix, I remember that I ran a wire from the black lead on the Ignitor directly to the coil and the red lead wants a full 12V, so that was tapped into the wire that sends 12V+ to the coil, just before the splice that connects the resistor wire.  If you connect the red wire from the Pertronix directly to the coil, it will see reduced voltage, due to the resistor wire.  ( I do believe )

 

Here is the factory splice  (cloth tape)

 

(The green feeds the resistor wire, which has yellowed/clear insulation).

 

 

 

Do you have a ceramic resistor?

What color is the wire that melted?

 

If that was your resistor wire that smoked, you may need to replace it with a ballast resistor, or replace the coil with a blue one (3 ohms resistance built in).

 

You'd better dig out that scorched wire and make sure it did not compromise the insulation on any of its neighbors.

Edited October 31, 2017 by '76mintgrun'02

[mataku527]

I ran it today and it started just fine.  Rough idle initially but when it warmed up, it was smooth.  I do think it died because I just didn't let it warm up appropriately, but I can't explain why it didn't want to start back up.

 

As for the petronix and timing, I did use an advanced timing gun and set it to the appropriate degrees to match with the TDC mark.

I do have a black coil and remember check the resistance on the wire and it was appropriate.    

I believe the melted wire was black, I'm gonna do dig it out and see how much damage was done.  

 

I'll check to see if there is a direct connection between the 12V and the petronix.  It was installed by the PO.  

[mataku527]

I checked my coil again, I believe I have the original black coil.  It does seem the numbers are off this time, I will measure it again.
- center to + or - = 7.1 kOhms

- + to - = 3.4 Ohms

Resistor wire = 1.2 Ohms

 

Currently the wires that go from the pertronix do come from the coil.  It sounds like my red wire to the pertronix should be spliced just before the resistor?

 

I confirmed I scored the resistor wire, but other wires seem good.  the resistor wire itself also seems to be intact.

Edited October 31, 2017 by mataku527

[Simeon]

If your primary resistance (the coil + to -) is 3.4 ohms then you shouldn't be running a resistance wire. 

[mataku527]

Does that mean I should splice before the wire resistor - taking one wire to pertronix and one wire to the coil?  Is the 7K Ohms a concern, I see some threads regarding coil resistance and none seem to have the 7K ohm I have.

 

Or I guess, I can just splice with before the resistor and go to the coil since there is already  wire from coil to pertronix.

Edited November 1, 2017 by mataku527

[Healey3000]

Hi,

 

With the 3 ohm coil you have, you don't need the ballast or resistance wire.

 

Normally, with a 1.9 ohm coil, the resistor wire is in series with the hot lead that feeds the coil positive.  This ensures that the voltage reaching the coil is lower than 12 volts because it is in actuality a 9-ish volt coil.  During cranking, because it is expected that battery voltage will drop, the resistance wire is shorted out by the arrangement on the starter solenoid terminals.  This ensures a hot spark during cranking.  Once the starter is disengaged, the resistance wire is put back in the circuit since the battery voltage is now expected to be a happy14 volts or so.

 

In cases like yours (and mine), where the coil is 3 ohms, the resistor wire is never needed, simply because it is a 12 volt coil.  The downside of this is that you may not have a good spark during cranking.  Therefore, you can remove that resistance wire entirely and instead use regular wire to connect to coil positive.  What this means is that there will be no connection to any of the starter terminals (other than the ones related to cranking).

 

Hope this makes sense.

[mataku527]

14 hours ago, Healey3000 said:

Hi,

 

With the 3 ohm coil you have, you don't need the ballast or resistance wire.

 

Normally, with a 1.9 ohm coil, the resistor wire is in series with the hot lead that feeds the coil positive.  This ensures that the voltage reaching the coil is lower than 12 volts because it is in actuality a 9-ish volt coil.  During cranking, because it is expected that battery voltage will drop, the resistance wire is shorted out by the arrangement on the starter solenoid terminals.  This ensures a hot spark during cranking.  Once the starter is disengaged, the resistance wire is put back in the circuit since the battery voltage is now expected to be a happy14 volts or so.

 

In cases like yours (and mine), where the coil is 3 ohms, the resistor wire is never needed, simply because it is a 12 volt coil.  The downside of this is that you may not have a good spark during cranking.  Therefore, you can remove that resistance wire entirely and instead use regular wire to connect to coil positive.  What this means is that there will be no connection to any of the starter terminals (other than the ones related to cranking).

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

This makes good sense.  From looking at other posts - it sees my secondary coil resistance is low.  Before I run the splice, I was hoping to get thoughts on whether I should just replace my coil since it may be bad.