introduction Looking for some advice- E36 M3 vs 2002

[shoeless]

Ive wanted a 02 for quite some time. Bought my first house last year and finally have a garage to wrench in. That meant the search began for a proper candidate.

Almost a year later and I'm feeling a bit deflated and thinking of other options. Ive missed my fair share of 02s over the past 6 months. Seems every fair priced offering is snapped up by a flipper or the seller prefers a local buyer. Im willing to travel for the right car and tow home or have it shipped. Ive offered deposits and could be there within a couple weeks but its much easier for the seller to sell local and be done with it. 

Enough ranting.

It looks like I could get in a healthy e36 M3 for about the same price. Im starting to consider that route but reaching out to you good folks for advice.

 

Whats my budget?

- Roughly $6k (to get into a decent driver)

 

Primary use?

-Fair weather driver 

-Curves and backroads to and from work

 

What am I looking for in a 02?

- A decent driver

- Can be a project but needs to be nearly complete

- Minimal paint/body work needed

 

Pros for the 02:

-Classic beauty

-Easy to wrench on

-Reasonably cheap parts

 

Pros for the M3:

-Safer in the event of an accident?

-More reliable heat and a/c (wife friendly)

-S50B32

-Easier to find for sale!

 

 

Thats where Im at right now. Im back and forth on this. I know there will be a 02 bias here but I think some of you may have experience with both. What else should I be considering? Should I just be patient and hope the right 02 will be manageable one day? I assume I would be happy with either.

 

Thanks for tuning in and any advice is appreciated.

Brian

Edited January 20, 2016 by shoeless

[M3M3]

two very different cars.. I have had lots of 2002's and several E36's.  have had my current 97M3/4 since it was new.

 

02 - classic, unique.  

 

E36 M3 - much better car in every other way.  comfort, power, safety, handling...you name it, it does it a lot better than a 2002.

 

6k is going to be pretty low to get into either car for one in decent condition.

 

there is no right answer, only your desire to have one or the other.

[ray_]

 

there is no right answer, only your desire to have one or the other.

Or both!

 

OP, what do you want? Comfort, adequate HVAC? ABS? If so, there's your answer.

 

Maybe

 

Cheers,

[Grover]

I'm guessing I'm like several folks on this forum, I've got both of these. Like Marshall said, in pretty much all quantifiable ways, the M3 is "better." However, at least for me, I've never bonded with it in the way I have with the '02. Perhaps that's because I don't work on it in the same way I do the '02, but the M3 just doesn't have quite the same soul as the older car. I use the M3 as my daily driver, and the '02 as a more occasional fun-day car.

 

While I don't buy cars for investments, one notable strength for the '02 is that it is likely going UP in value, whereas I'd guess most E36 M3's are still in decline (evidenced by the fact that you believe you can find a decent one for $6k.) Nice ones may start going up in value at some point, but at least right now they are a phenomenal bang for your buck purchase. The '02 I think you could almost make an argument for as an investment vehicle.

[shoeless]

two very different cars.. I have had lots of 2002's and several E36's.  have had my current 97M3/4 since it was new.

 

02 - classic, unique.  

 

E36 M3 - much better car in every other way.  comfort, power, safety, handling...you name it, it does it a lot better than a 2002.

 

6k is going to be pretty low to get into either car for one in decent condition.

 

there is no right answer, only your desire to have one or the other.

 

Definitely two VERY different cars. Which is why Im struggling. 

I figured $6k would be a good avg by what Ive seen available. 

 

Or both!

 

OP, what do you want? Comfort, adequate HVAC? ABS? If so, there's your answer.

 

Maybe

 

Cheers,

 

Both would be the correct choice if the wifes A4 wasn't taking up space in our garage already.....

 

What do I want? The ultimate driving experience! My other vehicle is a 05 4Runner which is great for getting me places I like to go but rather boring with everyday life. Before it, I was in a 1.8t VW Passat (modded) and that was a great car for many years....fun and just quick enough. I miss having a manual and better handling for getting through the curves to and from work! Don't necessarily need the M3 power though.

The wife would like the HVAC. 

I just want to find something before summer. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by shoeless

[Solarphil]

How do you feel about rust?

With an 02 (especially at the 6k end of the pool) it's not a question of if, but of how much. Even if you root it all out (again, not impossible but challenging on a budget) it's an always present force to be reckoned with. By the E36 era, pretty much every manufacturer including BMW had figured out how to make bodies that didn't rust while you watched. Galvanizing, hot dipping, e-coating, sprinkling with magic Bavarian pixie dust, don't know exactly whatever it was, but it seems to work. I know you're planning this as a fair weather driver, but if it could have to be pressed into real daily driver service due to a breakdown of the other car, that's a point in the M3s favor. Or if you like hooning in the snow and wet (my personal fav).

How much "preemptive service" budget do you have set aside?

E36 M3s are the cheapest and easiest of all Ms to keep running, but again at the 6k end of the pool will tend to either have no service history, or known history of no service. Either way, you'll need to budget prophylactic replacement of every plastic part in the cooling system, plus I'm sure a few other things as well. Not to be discouraged, it's all doable and can even be a lot of fun, just know what you're getting in for so you can negotiate it into the total "purchase" price. I don't think there's many things on an 02 that can cause comparable total engine meltdown due to neglect, at least not that can't be detected on a good PPI.

When my wife is stuck between two balanced choices, she'll flip a coin. Whichever way it comes up, if her first gut response is "but I'd rather..." then she knows that's the way her heart was leaning, she just needed something to spur her to the decision. Seems to work.

Btw, I think values for E36 M3s are beginning to rise. Maybe not as crazily as 02's, but if E21s can sell for over 10k then all things are possible.

P

[shoeless]

You bring up the two most important factors with my choices P.

 

Yes, with the 02 I am concerned about getting into body work and/or paint. Ive found relatively low rust examples in my range but would require paint. Even a decent, basic paint job could get into big money. Heres one of the few examples Ive seen lately: http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/174228-1968-02-dallas-tx/ 

It was at the top of my buy in budget, but I would've been happy to have it. Paint and small rust removal could be put off for a while.

 

With the M3, I do worry about history. Seems like the go to car to beat the hell out of. From the brief time looking at whats available, Ive been looking for the cooling system to be replaced at least and hopefully some suspension work. I'm not sure how much concern I should put into high mileage (150-200k) if there are records of service.

Heres just a couple examples: http://athensohio.craigslist.org/cto/5380994047.html  http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/5396838859.html

 

The $6k is just my buy in budget. For that, Id like to get a driver that could be brought up to top condition over the next year. 

Wife works from home so her car is always available if needed. 

 

Thanks for the info thus far. Its all helpful as Im weighing all the pros and cons.

[vinceg14]

I had a 97 M3 for a year. Not my daily but did take it to work occasionally. It was a replacement for my 79 911 SC as a more practical but fun week end car. I agree with Grover and I never connected to the E36 M. Sold it after a year. As a daily driver it should be a better choice but I would look into the E30 318is. These cars are fun, economical and have plenty of parts available. 

[Teelinger]

Agree with Solarphil, at your price point it's not a question of if, but how much rust wise for an 02.

I bought mine near your budget last year after a long search. It has some rust (non-structural) and had been hit, but after a thorough PPI I decided to buy it because of the combination of mechanical condition, parts and upgrades. Like you mentioned, body and paint can wait which is what I'm going to do until I can save enough to take care of it the right way. Besides, I can't see any of that stuff from the driver's seat .

+2 on the e30 318is suggestion. That seems like a good compromise between your two options. You'd be towards the top of the price range for the e30 instead of towards the bottom of the other two. Here's a nice one to consider: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/cto/5386732920.html

James

[danco_]

Like Mlytle and Grover, I also have a 97 m3/4/5 and a 1600/2002. I like them both for different reasons, but I agree with both when they say that from a performance standpoint, the m3 is superior. The 2002 has the soul that I fell in love with. It's slow and archaic in most ways that the m3 is not, but there is something special about driving a dinosaur (2002) to morning coffee, or slamming through the gears on your favorite back roads. And at this point in time, while the m3 is great, mine is already coming up on 18 years old. The m3 is slower than most minivans on the road today, so even if I drive it aggressively, it's not exactly a stoplight-to-stoplight warrior. 

 

You also mention the engine of the m3 being an "s50b32" with 321hp. That specific motor never came to the USA. We received a much milder s50b30 or s52b32 with 240hp. Very different. Don't be fooled! Still fun, but not 321hp fun.

 

If you can buy a decent 2002, do it. If you can buy a decent e36 m3, do it. 

[M3M3]

both cars have souls...just different ones.    I get a big stupid grin when i drive either one of them.    an even bigger stupid grin when driving them on a track.   I love them both equally!  (of course, my 2002 has been massaged to the point that it absolutely leaves M3's in the dust on a race track....)

 

at your price point, do not underestimate the amount of work that will be needed on either car.    figure double your initial investment on immediate maint.    the e36 is 20yrs old.    every piece of bushing/bearing/rubber will need to be replaced.    at that price point they will have probably had a tough life.

 

and a hint.    don't get a regular M3. get one with the "Lux package".    those came with leather door cards which do not fall apart.    normal M3's came with stock E36 door cards which delaminate.

 

your wife set the criteria that made your decision already.   she wants A/C.   that ain't happening with a 2002.    even for those 2002's with "a/c" installed, it is basically an ineffective decoration.

Edited January 20, 2016 by mlytle

[achman]

I currently have both.

 

'97 M3/4/5 with Turner Stage 3+, 290whp, sunroof, split folding rear seats, TC Kline suspension. Weekend driver, can be pressed into regular duty if my DD is laid up. Extremely fast, comfortable, amazing handling, I never see another one. Got 27.8mpg on 600+ mile trip to WV recently.

 

'73 2002Tii totally stock. Weekend driver. Spritely handling, spirited performance, great visibility, simple (but complex) attention getter, fun. I never see another.

 

$6K gets you a car that you'll need to put $3K into it to have a reliable daily driver. The M3 for $6k will need a new Stewart water pump, aluminum radiator, most bushings, end links, brakes, shifter rebuilt, PS pump, reservoir and hoses, etc., along with the seats being destroyed and ugly. The shocks will also be shot or it will have cheap coils on it which will need to be replaced.

 

It will also bring you immediate joy when you hear that S52 pulling hard when merging onto a highway, will seem way faster than it is, the steering will be the best you ever felt, the handling will have you saying to yourself, "this is why everyone talks about the handling" and everyone will comment how great they are.

 

$6K gets you a most likely rusty 2002 with Weber conversion, incorrect seats, wheels, steering wheel, exhaust, suspension, smokey valve seals, hole in trunk, old window rubber, a gas smell in the interior, and bad tires.

 

It will also be the coolest car you have ever owned, will handle better than it has any right to, will teach you more about driving than any other car except an early Miata, will draw appreciative comments anyway you take it, will never depreciate, is something you can do any of the work yourself, and is awesome.

 

The M3 is MORE of almost everything that the 2002 is. This is good and bad.

 

If it was my only car, and a DD, I would go for the M3 because I would get tired of posting "2002 won't start HELP" threads and being late to important events because it is "cool to DD an old car."

 

I'm just trying to be a voice of reality, but car guys aren't realists. After all, my 914 has a V8 in it, and that isn't logical either. Hope this helps. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[TobyB]

 

02 - classic, unique.  

 

E36 M3 - much better car in every other way.

 

This.

 

But.

 

You can't USE half of what an M3 can do.  Period.  Unless you're tracking it, and then it's in need of a few things.  Like money.

 

If you already have an A4 and want something to work on, get a 2002.

Drive it for a while, see if you like it.  If it's too agricultural, they're not depreciating,

If you like it, keep it, and it can be made faster for the tax on the go- fast bits for the E36.

No, you will never win the stoplight drags.  But it's fun to drive.

 

The other thing- they're too small for modern cities.

So if you're looking at an in- city car, go M3.

 I stopped dailying one about 5 years ago, here-

the left- seat- occupants in the Audis, Priusses, and Testostalaas just didn't see it any more...  

 

t

Edited January 20, 2016 by TobyB

[shoeless]

All very good advice and giving me plenty of food for thought. 

 

I do understand that $6k is not going to get me the best example available of either car. 

While doing research on the M, someone said "it doesn't matter how you spend it, a solid one WILL cost $10k."

Meaning if I spend $6k, it will likely need another $4k in work to get it up to spec. 

I believe the same goes for the 02. 

What I want for the initial budget is a driver that could be on the road for a year while I do work here and there. 

That could also mean I get in a $3k 02 that needs another $3k for x,y, or z to get road worthy.....THEN another few K to make it sound over the year.

 

I have found M3s within my budget with 125-200k that have had all the cooling system gone over, suspension attended to, and seem to be reasonably healthy. Do I think they're 100% reliable as is? Probably not. But wouldn't they make a good starting point?

 

Again, I really appreciate everyones advice. Ive been quietly lurking around here for quite some time learning about the 02 and what I would should expect.Turns out you fine people know your M's too. 

 

Another question for owners of both.

It wouldn't influence my decision but whats the mpg and insurance cost comparisons? 

 

Thanks again.

Brian

[M3M3]

there are no good numbers for mpg for an 02.  too many variations in the modifications, driving style and maintenance condition.  but for a data point, my 02 and my M3 get approximately the same mpg.  8mpg on the race track and 31+ on the highway.

 

no comparison on insurance either.  02 could be registered as vintage with limited use for pennies.  m3 all over the map (literally) based on location, use and driving record.

 

as you said, neither is a consideration for use.

 

bottom line....ya gotta just go drive them.  neither makes sense as an extra car.  just go with whichever makes you smile more.  this decision is yours, not ours.  there is no right answer...you are over analyzing the choice....

Edited January 21, 2016 by mlytle