body and interior Frame Rust ... What Do I Do Now?

[mikesmith]

Thanks to the nice folks at Rare Rides, I have another interesting surprise to share.

 

 

This all started with an odd-looking blob under the wiring loom that I thought I'd poke at while I had the "carpet" ripped up to deal with the pedal box. Turns out the blob was a big lump of silicone, and under it ... this.

 

That led me to pull the "carpet" up on the other side (it was glued liberally to the sheetmetal, so this was a bit of a struggle), to find:

 

 

Another huge blob of silicone, only this time white instead of black. On both sides, there's a patch riveted(!) into the floor, and rust that looks like it leads into the frame.

 

For good measure, behind the fuse box:

 

 

There's a small hole on the cabin side that seems to be related, too.

 

I'm not set up to deal with frame repairs like this, so I'm going to need to find a local shop, assuming of course that it's salvageable at all.

 

If any of the locals are reading (tjones, I guess I'm talking about you...) feel free to contact me if you'd like to talk about taking this on (or for that matter, if you think I'm better off just getting out and trying again).

 

Needless to say, I'm unimpressed.

 

 = Mike

Edited July 1, 2013 by mikesmith

[M3M3]

anything can be fixed...all it takes is time and $$$.  really depends on how far into the rest of the car you are whether you want to fix it or find another.  i have seen far worse rust....

[mikesmith]

Being 'into the car' doesn't make any difference to me (fallacy of sunk cost, etc.) it's a question of whether I'd come out ahead fixing this one or starting again with another shell and another set of issues.  What I'm lost on is how much time and $$$ are going to be involved in dealing with the rust here, and whether a spot fix is more appropriate than (say) stripping the entire shell first and then making a call about salvageability at that point.

 

I realise that folks may not want to talk specific money numbers in a public thread, and that a couple of pictures like this aren't going to lead to anything like an accurate estimate; what I'm hoping for is some guidance as to whether this sort of issue is one that's typically worth fixing; what else I should be looking for to help guide the decision, and what I should drink to deal with being this pissed off at the PO.

[jerry]

if you are not going to do the work yourself, or, you don't want to spend the considerable amount of money to fix it correctly, step away. 

 

it can be fixed, but it takes time, lot's of it, to do a nice job.  you could probably speed up the process by merely cutting out what you can and welding patch panels over the holes you've made.  not the way i do things, but better than trying to glue metal with silicone sealer.

 

if you are close to marin, i can show you personally, what is involved with your rust issues...

 

there was another guy who posted up a week ago and i gave a different answer because he was willing to take on the work and learn.  it's a matter of time, patience, motivation and priorities.

 

good luck

[GoFaSSter]

I have seen what Jerry has done first hand. If he is offering a few pointers I would take him up on it. Besides the cool cars and the great knowledge he has an amazing place to just be and enjoy.

[mikesmith]

Jerry, thanks for the advice and the offer; I may take you up on it (SF is 'close' to Marin, I guess 8).

 

To be pragmatic, I'm not in a position to do the work myself; I don't have the time, the space or the skill, and I'm not interested in doing a bad job and foisting the vehicle off onto some other poor unfortunate.

 

That leaves quantifying what counts as a 'considerable amount', which is prettymuch where I'm at right now. Is it more or less than what it'd take me to get out of this one and into another that doesn't have the plague?

[TobyB]

It's all a gamble-

 

the best you can do with the current car is check EVERYWHERE, and I do mean everywhere-

a borescope, a drill and at least a couple of afternoons.  Rust from the top often means it lived

too near the sea- but that doesn't mean that it wasn't driven into it a few times, and only a few

damp beach runs can do a lot of damage to something like a 2002.

 

Then go shopping- but the gamble is that you can find everything in a potential replacement-

and that's really hard.  Not only are there at least a hundred ways the cars can rust, there

are a hundred ways to conceal or to simply not find that it's there. 

 

There is no sane way to quantify it- every shop will have its own approach, and you'll have to decide

whether you can accept what you're told by them.  Almost everyone's some degree of honest,

but again, having done a couple of these cars, you'd have to have done a dozen to really have

a handle on what it takes to redo the sheet metal, and at what balance of workmanlike and original.

Original is seldom best, btw....

 

Good luck- its not trivial.  But if you don't mind doing the legwork and taking gambles small and not so small,

it's not so hard.

 

hth

 

t

[Mike Self]

Listen to TobyB's advice--2002 rust is like an iceberg--only 10% shows above the surface...the rest is hidden.  It would be unusual to find inner frame rail rust (as pictured) without the outer rocker panel being rusted too.  And the inner frame rail is structural (the outer rocker panel isn't). 

 

The spots you pictured aren't too bad and could be welded up by any competent welder.  Since they won't show, you or the body shop won't have to finish it--just primer it so it won't rust again. 

 

Read all the FAQ postings you can find on where 2002s rust,and check 'em all on your car before you proceed.  Since you will have farm the repairs out, costs can rapidly escalate to the point where getting an unrusted shell and transferring the mechanical bits becomes a viable option.

 

My own '69 was probably too rusty once upon a time, but I wanted to fix it (my first new car) back to original.  I took welding and auto body classes at our local vocational school and spent six years off and on doing 95% of the welding on the car.  Got it all, no new rust after ten years and it looks good (see avatar above). 

 

Your decision...

 

cheers

mike

[snowy]

Ive done the same as Mike above . Learnt how to weld , bought Mig Welder, stuffed up quite a bit , but learnt from that . I know there is rust but its all about attitude and reading up here and on other forums. You just keep cutting it away or replacing panels. And its so cool doing it, hands on real work , not like the desk stuff I used to do.

Snowy

[mikesmith]

But wait ... there's more.

 

 

Not so obvious is the way the floorpan is staved in, or the way the tar on the floor has melted and bubbled. Not quite sure about those patches either.

 

 

As a bonus, there was a rollcage in the car at some point. (And for those curious among you, no, none of these holes are blocked from the other side).

 

[jerry]

i'm gonna make a guess that you have or had a 5 speed in there, judging from the appearance of your tranny tunnel.  looks like they bolted the mounts (as i've done too) just aft of the original location which apparently received two riveted patches.

[mikesmith]

Yes, there's a 5-speed in there at the moment. I must have mis-understood from prior reading - I thought the original mounts were welded to the underside of the tunnel (or does removing them tend to leave a hole?).

[radio9phs]

In my automatic the original transmission mount system was two brackets welded into the tunnel onto which the transverse support was bolted.

My five speed support is through-bolted into the tunnel itself with a modified e21/getrag 245 support.