engine and drivetrain Schnitzer 20-4 Reproduction

[mattij]

Very interesting.  It appears you are making your new castings with the "schnitzer" font/log cast in.  Apparently no problems from Schnitzer regarding copywrite.  Your price points seem reasonable to me.  I spoke with my engine builder some time ago regrading machining a bare head (raw casting), many different operations to do and very expensive.  Of course if you are doing a number of them it costs less ..... This is that BmW M12 rallye motor with "butterlfy" injection Andersson mentioned, restored by Lester Owen (image by Lester Owen).  I don't know the details on these but there weren't many made, maybe only a few.

 

 

1451606_714732508539545_975280583_n.jpg

 

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

 

Yes, I had number of discussion a few years back with Karl Lamm and he said they would have no issues with that (at that time the Austrian project was also known). Valve cover will also have the same logo. There is also an additional marking for 'Grankulla Motor Works' citing to my home location.

 

The initial investment is done for CAD/CAM & moulds, I just wanted to have new heads done. If someone is interested, a reasonable pricepoint will give me some returns, helping the pain. Trying to get everything covered would lead to astronomical figures, now marginal cost for single 3D printed core, casting and machining is bearable.

 

In the end of the day, this is my hobby, not a profession so all the invested time is out of the equation. After creating two heads for myself, I can offer them as well to others for reasonbale margin. In addition to my racing hobby, the other motivation is the restoration of this.

Picture is from 1000 Lakes rally 1974, Mr Enomaa's Schitzer engined 2002.

 

Relating to M12, Achim Warmbold & Jean Todt participated as well with their M12 powered car.

 

This is the current condition, chassis starts to be back in shape, little by little.

[mattij]

Fantastic work!  Here is a story of BMW Motorsport rally cars.

 

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/june-2003/60/munich-or-bust

 

Great link! 

There are some minor inaccuracies in the article, I will elaborate them later as it is a long story. However it is related to identity of the car used in Donegal & TAP. 

This car referred in the article has the same chasiss number as my Rally car (at least the one that was in auction last autumn). Based on story it is a genuine factory car with M12, like mine is with Schnitzer 20-4. Figure that!

[markmac]

The engine I posted goes in the car show above with green stripes.  So much work to make a butterfly injection system for the M12 given how few of them they were making.  Back to your work on the Schnitzer head/engine bits, great that Schnitzer gave you their blessing to leave the logo cast in these, honestly while "less expensive" is always better, I think your price points on those parts is pretty realistic.  I don't know how much honestly I spent refurbishing my used head, it was a lot.  I recall that the guides themselves (just to have fabricated) were over $600 with no labor to install/finish, seats are Beryllium copper and Moldstar both really expensive.....but at the end it is still a used head that has had quite a few cycles.  New is always better than used.  Always.  I may want one of these from you at some point.  Again, great work.  Impressive.

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[mattij]

Yet another example of 'minor details'. To make sure sure the casting will produce a quality head, we tried to design the mold & casting system carefully. How molten aluminium fills the mold, gases are extracted efficiently, cooling happens in controlled manner, etc. Found an engineer with good references, etc. and who was enthusiastic about the project and started the work. Everything looked promising.

 

Unfortunately in this case I learned that state of the art simulations are worth nothing without practical experience. In theory the system in picture should have worked, but the real life castings did not produce what I was expecting.

 

 

Only after spending significant time figuring out what was wrong, I decided to find a really experienced foundry master. After he saw the casting system design and the unsatisfactory result, it took about 10sec for him to figure out what should be changed. He also sketched new mold & casting system design in just a few days time.

 

On paper, by hand, a crystal clear 3D design. 

No wonder, as he had been doing that for almost 50 years...

 

(For now, about seats and guides material, http://www.sbintl.com/ http://www.johnson-metall.fi)

Edited December 11, 2015 by mattij

[TobyB]

I envy your resources to even find a foundry- around here, that's all vanished.

 

Neat- please keep posting pics.

 

t

[markmac]

I envy your resources to even find a foundry- around here, that's all vanished.

 

Neat- please keep posting pics.

 

t

 

+1 - Its one thing casting something like a wheel center (I actually made a couple of foundry inquiries about casting one of mine....no dice) - a cylinder head....totally different deal on the complexity level.  Super cool.

[Benjamin A.R.]

Will you be making enough to sell them? If so this is great for the rest of us in the 02 community

[markmac]

I found this image of that M12 rallye engine (Lester Owen) installed .   Pretty sexy.  Curious about that radiator.  Doesn't look like a custom but spans nearly the entire front part of the bulkhead.  Interesting.

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

 

 

 

[roadhog0]

Honestly, I'm amazed you could find a foundry to do the work! Casting is a dying art sadly. I've had a chance to do a little of it at school in our foundry, but nothing this complex. I give you a lot of props for the fantastic work!

[whs.de]

+1 - Its one thing casting something like a wheel center (I actually made a couple of foundry inquiries about casting one of mine....no dice) - a cylinder head....totally different deal on the complexity level.  Super cool.

...yes casting a wheel center is not as complex as a cylinder head, but every part had to be perfect, because when a wheel center goes damaged in the wrong moment on the track, your problems are much bigger than a blown engine.

 

W.

[markmac]

agreed.  It appears either you or someone you know are casting Alpina (or Alpina replica) wheel centers.

[mattij]

Will you be making enough to sell them? If so this is great for the rest of us in the 02 community

If there is a real demand, I can supply.

A couple of more pics.

Sliced head prototype casting, other prototypes, originals and cam carrier prototype.

 

One of the cam carrier prototypes.

 

Only way to tell whether your process works is to look inside, in this case it didn't.

 

Bonus Christmas quiz, what is this ?

(my next reproduction part is not accepted as an answer)

[markmac]

MY wag, it almost looks like a custom spindle for a strut.  Like I said, wag = (wild ass guss).

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[markmac]

Matti, I ran across this some time ago.  They have a Schnitzer dry sump pan (non canted type), lower timing cover (wihout all the bits to actually make it work) and a dry sump valve cover. Valve cover looks like a pretty good casting to me, pan looks pretty good.  The lower timing cover - not so sure, plus as I mentioned you need the other bits to make it work.  Those can be made but like all things its just money.  Cheers.

 

 

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kirtcars.com/images/granta_race/kirtcars_race_09.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kirtcars.com/race-album-parts.html&h=600&w=800&tbnid=QsSdANQnqCqiyM:&zoom=1&docid=mjDbREdhakZtUM&ei=m4KRVb_3J861ogST9KnIBA&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&page=11&start=300&ved=0CB0QrQMwCDisAg

[TobyB]

that's a rear trailing arm bearing housing...  mmmmmmm3?

 

 

 

when a wheel center goes damaged in the wrong moment on the track, your problems are much bigger than a blown engine.

 

That's too general a statement  to be true.  Both can be non- events, and both can wreck you and your friends.

 

t