Battery trunk relocation options

[evil02]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

 

What tires "make the chassis work?"

 

Anything that sticks rather than sliding.

[Jimmy]

2 minutes ago, evil02 said:

 

Anything that sticks rather than sliding.

 

So, a lightweight and compliant wheel and tire combo that the dampers are able to control well rather than a package so heavy and rigid that the additional unsprung mass and momentum reduce stability over uneven surfaces in a high-speed corner? 

 

[NYNick]

People are free to spend their money any way they like. 95% of the drivers out there are incapable of achieving the limit of these (or any) cars. Do whatever makes you feel better. It's your car.

[evil02]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

 

So, a lightweight and compliant wheel and tire combo that the dampers are able to control well rather than a package so heavy and rigid that the additional unsprung mass and momentum reduce stability over uneven surfaces in a high-speed corner? 

 

 

Sure, you could say that.  I'm saying, if you have a track oriented suspension and tire setup where the next weak link is the chassis then, a cage tied to the suspension points and or just strut bars would help keep the geometry of your chassis as it should be.

[evil02]

1 hour ago, NYNick said:

People are free to spend their money any way they like. 95% of the drivers out there are incapable of achieving the limit of these (or any) cars. Do whatever makes you feel better. It's your car.

 

  I'm just saying, you can get your car to twist pulling into an uneven driveway. That being said, that is the limit and it has nothing to do with people driving them hard. Its just simple structural geometry. Try what I said, roll your window down and drive up on a curb. $100 says you will feel the door shift as the body twists.  Tie all the suspension points together and it will not flex as much.

[Jimmy]

5 minutes ago, evil02 said:

 

Sure, you could say that.  I'm saying, if you have a track oriented suspension and tire setup where the next weak link is the chassis then, a cage tied to the suspension points and or just strut bars would help keep the geometry of your chassis as it should be.

 

And I'm saying, until you get to light race wheels, R compounds and race track use, the additional weight and stiffness of "upgraded" wheels and tires are likely to be more detrimental to overall handling and dynamics than the alleged deflection of the suspension pickup points in most conditions. So much in many cases to make grip worse on the street instead of improving it via more rubber. I've driven plenty of cars with Bilsteins and big wheels that handle like absolute garbage.

 

Tying a cage to the suspension makes sense in any track car where the rules will allow it, but that's completely different than spanning strut bearings, which will still allow the car to apple crate if not tied well to other points. And tying upper shock mounts together seems pointless. The rear arms aren't located via the shocks, unless I'm missing something. 

 

Cheers

[evil02]

5 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

 

And I'm saying, until you get to light race wheels, R compounds and race track use, the additional weight and stiffness of "upgraded" wheels and tires are likely to be more detrimental to overall handling and dynamics than the alleged deflection of the suspension pickup points in most conditions. So much in many cases to make grip worse on the street instead of improving it via more rubber. I've driven plenty of cars with Bilsteins and big wheels that handle like absolute garbage.

 

Tying a cage to the suspension makes sense in any track car where the rules will allow it, but that's completely different than spanning strut bearings, which will still allow the car to apple crate if not tied well to other points. And tying upper shock mounts together seems pointless. The rear arms aren't located via the shocks, unless I'm missing something. 

 

Cheers

 

We are kind of talking about the same thing but, I will agree to disagree with you. I don't care if you track the car or not, it flexes. Tracking the car makes it worse and that is why track cars are all welded up. I believe boxing any part of the car together has got to stiffen it up. 

 

 The whole chassis is basically a U channel and the only thing that completes the "box" is the roof and the pillars. The pillars are the tiniest things in the world.  That being said, tying the strut and shock towers would help.  I mean, only every track car built would be wrong, lol..

 

 As I said, roll your window down, drive one wheel up on a curb and feel the chassis flex.

[Jimmy]

13 minutes ago, evil02 said:

 

  I'm just saying, you can get your car to twist pulling into an uneven driveway. That being said, that is the limit and it has nothing to do with people driving them hard. Its just simple structural geometry. Try what I said, roll your window down and drive up on a curb. $100 says you will feel the door shift as the body twists.  Tie all the suspension points together and it will not flex as much.

 

They're very flexible cars in general. My car is dry, never had any rust or structural issues, and when resting my arm on the door with the window down, I can feel my arm get squeezed between the outer door skin, window, and door card as the door twists under the normal course of driving down the street. It doesn't require a jolt such as from a pothole or expansion joint. 

 

I don't have any desire to increase dry grip or subsequently reinforce the car to support that. Besides, don't they say "loose is fast?" ?

[evil02]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

 

Besides, don't they say "loose is fast?" ?

 

I agree 100% 

 

[Jimmy]

4 minutes ago, evil02 said:

 

We are kind of talking about the same thing but, I will agree to disagree with you. I don't care if you track the car or not, it flexes. Tracking the car makes it worse and that is why track cars are all welded up. I believe boxing any part of the car together has got to stiffen it up. 

 

 The whole chassis is basically a U channel and the only thing that completes the "box" is the roof and the pillars. The pillars are the tiniest things in the world.  That being said, tying the strut and shock towers would help.  I mean, only every track car built would be wrong, lol..

 

 As I said, roll your window down, drive one wheel up on a curb and feel the chassis flex.

 

Yes, the entire car flexes. They're not as flimsy as Mk1 VWs but they're definitely quite twisty. What I'm saying is, given all of the flexing, just tying the struts together on a street car seems a bit useless. There's a lot more twisting going on between the subframes.

[evil02]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

 

Yes, the entire car flexes. They're not as flimsy as Mk1 VWs but they're definitely quite twisty. What I'm saying is, given all of the flexing, just tying the struts together on a street car seems a bit useless. There's a lot more twisting going on between the subframes.

 

  Even the Mk2's flexed.  You can see the paint on the seam sealer around the strut housings cracking on them. The Mk1's had aftermarket lower tie bars that helped too.

 

 I understand but, I wouldn't say it is useless. It boils down to what you want. I believe any bit helps. Now how much it helps vrs costs, is up to the buyer. My vote would be why not, it won't hurt and they are not that much money.

[Jimmy]

The 16v Scirocco has a factory K bar which was emulated by the aftermarket, and a big box-shaped brace with an x in the center was available for srs biznis. Those cars are so flimsy that I could tell the brace was installed by simply turning the steering wheel. That's with the car not even running, parked on gravel. The "snap back" was gone. 

 

I have a Mk2 but the only paint damage is from rocks, door dings and what I suspect was a runaway shopping cart.

 

Cheers

[Dudeland]

The 16v Scirocco has a factory K bar which was emulated by the aftermarket, and a big box-shaped brace with an x in the center was available for srs biznis. Those cars are so flimsy that I could tell the brace was installed by simply turning the steering wheel. That's with the car not even running, parked on gravel. The "snap back" was gone. 
 
I have a Mk2 but the only paint damage is from rocks, door dings and what I suspect was a runaway shopping cart.
 
Cheers

I had an 8v and the flex in my 02 is reminiscent of my 8v. Both are really fun cars. What few semi(if there is one) professional race car drivers I know, some like things a little loose, they adapt their style, and because they are lighter, feel that they have an advantage.




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[Jimmy]

10 minutes ago, Dudeland said:

I had an 8v and the flex in my 02 is reminiscent of my 8v. Both are really fun cars. What few semi(if there is one) professional race car drivers I know, some like things a little loose, they adapt their style, and because they are lighter, feel that they have an advantage.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

In the world of bicycle frames, the difference between aluminum and steel is often described such that "steel is lively, aluminum is dead."

 

Since hearing that description, I prefer to think of my car as "lively." ?

 

 

[ShakeyC]

Unless rear strut brace is bolted through the boot floor box section its free to move in all directions most importantly up and down. Top of the shocks deflection can be simply measured with a long ruler, pipe anything rigid really by marking the distance between 2 fixed points then jacking up one corner at a time. Then hang a plub line from between middle of rear struts so line just touches the boot floor, jack a corner up again and see the gap move there is your flex. 

.

Alloy flexes more in tension than steel and steel flexes more than cold rolled seamless tube used in certified roll cages, alloy brace = show brace.