AlfaBMWGuy

From looking at the app away from my tii, it does look like I've got no curve set when I got to the "Curves" screen from the app.  For the "File information" part it says "No curve read."  Then for both Centrifugal curve and MAP curve, there's no data in either the graphs or the tables.  The "Edit" buttons are disabled though, maybe because you need to be currently connected to a 123 distributor to set anything?  So, I guess it still comes back to whether there is some kind of basic default curve that is set that is enough to get your car started/running with a 123?

Thanks @dlacey.  That was my initial concern so glad to rule one thing out, even if it's not the immediate answer.  I'll check for spark when I get a chance.  Does anyone else know whether you have to load an initial/default curve through the app rather than just connecting to the app and trying to start it right away?

@LabphotoIt's all connected back up like it was with the coil--just new connections added for the 1-2-3.  I didn't introduce that into the discussion either.  I originally didn't know those previous connections to the coil were needed.  But, after not getting any green LED light at all from the 123, I eventually figured out that I needed the negative side of the coil connected like it was.  Then reading here on the FAQ I saw that the old positive/red connection on the coil was needed as well related to the tachometer I think--although in terms of connecting to the 1-2-3 and not being able to start, the previous positive connection to the coil didn't seem to make a difference.

@dlaceyYou mean the black wire that turns to yellow dangling by the distributor?  I didn't even post a pic of my coil just to avoid further confusion.

That was another question @Mike G.  I was under the impression that you could just fire it up the first time with no curve selected.  Is that not the case?  Without that selected is it effectively the same as "immobilized" and it will never even send any spark out from the distributor? Or, I guess the better way to say that is that I thought it had some default curve selected.

Here's another perspective on the now-dangling-yellow-wire in case that helps (the blue tape numbering the plug wires was just one of my attempts not to confuse myself and get something wrong--clearly did not work)

Here's my old distributor with the connection point for the "magic yellow wire"

And here is the dangling yellow wire along with the newly installed 1-2-3 distributor (I pulled it out from the plastic wire conduit to show it turning to a double black wire just a few inches from the end):

So does this yellow/black wire need to be connected somehow (and how) or is it fine just dangling and this not related to whatever my issue is?

Thanks,

Gary

Hello,

So my first real upgrade (after some new tires) on my new-to-me '74 tii that I introduced to the FAQ early this month is a Bluetooth 1-2-3 electronic ignition.  I was pretty confident I got it installed correctly, but when I crank the engine after connecting to the app, the starter just turns over continually with no indication there is any spark.  I made sure not to do anything too dumb like the "Immobilize the device" setting in the app.  I got the engine to TDC for cylinder #1 based on the camshaft flange notch point right to the oil tube above, the cam lobes in the proper orientation on the "backside" for cylinder #1, and the rotor pointing to cylinder #1 for the old distributor.  With the new 123 distributor then installed I have the red wire from the distributor going to the coil positive and the blue wire grounded to the body.  The black wire I didn't connect until after I had done the "green LED light" thing with rotating the 123 distributor CCW until the light just first came on.  I tightened down the distributor, put the black wire to the coil negative (which is a Bosch blue coil), and then put the valve cover back on, spark plugs in, plug wires to the right spots on the 123 distributor cap (as well as to the right plugs) and the high voltage wire installed from the coil to the  distributor cap.  The phone app was able to connect to the distributor after the key was turned to the on position and it took the default PIN code, but I crank and nothing in terms of acting like it might start as I described above.

One question though is that my old distributor, which is a 0231-188-002, the correct Bosch replacement part number for the early tii distributor from what I found here, has a male wire spade connector for the condenser--I'll post a picture next.  Last weekend I was figuring out what I'd need to do for the actual 1-2-3 install (clearly I didn't figure it out very well given the current problem) and I was playing with original distributor.  While doing this I inadvertently knocked the wire off connector to the male spade.  With that done I got the exact same situation where it would only crank and never fire.  After much frustration I finally discovered this dangling female connector and felt on the distributor backside that this wire had a likely spot to be connected.  When it was reconnected the car instantly fired up--after all that cranking it should have.

For my 123, this female wire connector is dangling again so my question is whether this somehow needs to be wired in with the 123 distributor like it was for the old distributor where it was the magic that let my tii start?  I'll put a picture of that dangling connector as well and if someone could say "yes" or "no" in terms of whether it's OK for that not to be connected, I would greatly appreciate it.  My dangling wire happens to be yellow at the very end where the connector is, but a couple inches above that it's actually a dual black wire-and then it goes into a big wire bundle and I don't know where that goes--along the firewall and to the front driver corner of engine where the battery and voltage regulator is my best guess.

Thanks,

Gary

I will take your driver side flag mirror the set of plug wire cable guides.  Sending a PM for details.

Thanks,

Gary

@Dugan27, did you give up on the Atlantik '72 tii  out of Portland?  Did you ever contact the seller?  There are lots of hints that at least at the $44.5K BaT selling price, it wasn't a good buy and highly likely misrepresented to put it in the most favorable light possible while not disclosing any number of issues.  The biggest hint I think is that it didn't even turn out to be the car that the BaT buyer was hoping for even though he tried to assure other commenters he bought it with eyes wide open.  At some reduced price though, it may make sense for someone (probably someone with a lot of 2002 experience doing a decent portion of the work themselves) to take it on since easily a '72 tii done right is a $50K car these days.  Plus, with this one, I think the buyer would need eyes on the car and not even a PPI from a trusted, knowledgeable resource would give the confidence needed to take the plunge.  Sounds like you are in FL on the complete opposite side of the country from this tii?  Finally, at your apparent price point, not focusing on a tii makes the most sense (as you indicated in another reply).  You might squeak into a solid '74 tii, but with a '72 or '73, I think you will just be finding these cars that are wonky.

-Gary

Now I took the time to read through the 4-page FAQ thread.  This is an interesting link that was posted inside that thread giving you an even better idea on the state of this car at least at one point and time: http://davidsclassiccars.com/bmw/230190-1972-bmw-2002tii-roundie-atlantik-blue-no-reserve-nr-matching-numbers.html

I believe that was taken from a "full disclosure" eBay listing (don't find those very often).

Also just noticed one of the final auction comments links to a 4-page thread here on this car: https://www.bmw2002faq.com/forums/topic/231828-1972-tii-vancouver-update/

That's also something to study before you contact the current seller.  This is apparently a "Select Classics" special, probably the "restorer"/dealer here with the worst reputation of them all for shady practices and valuing the almighty dollar over everything else.  I haven't even read through the 4-page thread here yet, but wanted to make you aware since you were close to contacting the seller.

-Gary

14 minutes ago, Dugan27 said:

At least the Grey BATmobile was WAY over my budget....

 

Going to call the Portland seller in a bit

I'd definitely read through the BaT auction listing description, study the pictures, and look through the 304 auction comments before you get too serious about it.  I suspect 250+ of those comments won't be of any value in your case, but there will be some that are helpful in your evaluation.

Although purists, those who would only settle for a 100% original car, would have a lot of nits to pick with this tii staring with the snorkel nose panel, it does look to have a lot of good attributes to that could justify at or near the $35K asking price.  A roundie tii in Atlantik is going to have wide appeal.

Assuming the buyer completed the transaction from the BaT auction:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-bmw-2002tii-25/

then, this did sell for just shy of $45K.  Again assuming it did sell to the winning auction bidder, it does seem this car didn't meet up with the expectations he expressed in a heavily "liked" comment after auction close.  I'm betting lots of 2002 owners take $10K baths after 3 years of ownership even in this crazy market (although most would not admit it even to themselves) as it's just the nature of this hobby/addiction.  Usually though it's when you add up what they've sunk into the car after purchase, not what they initially paid.

Lots of pictures with the auction you don't get with the CL ad.  Might be a really good opportunity, but given that $10K discrepancy between the BaT and CL prices, I'd really want to check it out carefully.  It also doesn't sound like the current seller is the BaT buyer just from how the CL ad is worded.

-Gary

Thanks Teelinger.  It's definitely got a few things to sort before traveling any distance.  Most importantly, right now my temp gauge is running between 2/3 and 3/4.  I got that sorted on my last 2002, where it would head for the red in heavy traffic so even worse, and will again.  Also getting too much pre-detonation pinging and I'm going to war on that this weekend installing a 1-2-3 ignition.  Then I've got a defective new tire that can't be balanced so waiting on the replacement for that.

Hi Gordon,

Your upgrades are desirable and I don't even like to use the word restomod to describe them because you are really not deviating in significant ways from what the factory did cosmetically at the time, just what they did for the North American market examples to meet burdensome Federal requirements.

Mine has flared wheel arches as I mentioned in my original post, but at least they are high quality and more tasteful than many--I just couldn't reject the car solely for that reason (even if I personally prefer original) when it was so good overall.

What specifically do you think of your Eibach springs and Bilstein sport struts/shocks combination?  There is not much objective information on springs that I can find (e.g., spring rates) comparing Eibach, H&R, and Ireland Engineering.  But, from the subjective opinions it seems like Eibach is the softest of those three so I'm curious about you having paired those with the stiffer Bilsteins (vs. HD).  Did you specifically want a softer spring and stiffer shock combination or do you believe these are really well matched to each other and that this is a pretty aggressive spring?

I'm looking to go one step softer than what I had with my last '71 2002, which had Ireland Stage 1 springs (and sway bars) along with the recommended Bilstein HDs for those.  I just felt that was a little more stiff/controlled than I want this time.  Maybe instead of my planned Eibach springs and Koni yellow struts/shocks, I should go with stock springs and the Koni yellows?  I believe with the adjustability in the Koni yellows, you can get them a least somewhat softer than the Bilstein HDs.  There is also Koni red, but then I don't think you get the adjustability and I'm getting the impression if you adjust the yellows to full soft, you are essentially getting the valving of the red, just with more adjustability.  Then I've heard, at least in the Alfa world, of someone going with Koni yellow on one end (front?), and red on the other, but offhand that doesn't seem like the best strategy to mix them even from the same manufacturer.

Thanks,

Gary

Les @02Les, thanks for honing in on the production date.  That will hold me over until I get absolute confirmation from BMW Archives.

Gordon @Gordon, I'm going to stay away from what is traditionally considered a restomod in terms of both significant cosmetic and mechanical changes that aren't true to what left the factory.  I think tii's are rare enough these days they shouldn't be engine swapped, turned into turbo tributes, etc.  I will be doing tasteful upgrades though like the 1-2-3 ignition, upgraded suspension, and probably years from now the U.S. marker light delete and Euro bumper conversion like yours.  I actually go back a ways with 2002s and got my first '71 not long out of college in 1990.  I followed Keith's my2002tii website back when he was originally building the car and it is an amazing example of what can be done.  I always found it interesting that he chose a color so close to Granatrot (a Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth factory color I believe), but didn't go for the factory Granatrot.  Definitely Granatrot is a 1970s metallic so not as brilliant as modern metallics so that's probably the reason--he just wanted his tii to stand out that much more.  While I'm also working through the initial list of things to do on mine, I'll probably go with a bumper tuck as the interim solution with the fnal solution being what you have now with the Euro look.  I used to follow this board back when Keith posted here as well.  I know there was a fallout between he and some of the other members here at the time resulting in him deciding to no longer participate.  I think that was a bigger loss to 2002 community than it was for either he or those who were part of whatever the disagreement was at the time.

Mike @Mike Self, it was a hard decision to sell the 318is, hence why I sold the 2002 first.  They were both original owner cars I happened to buy out of Boise, Idaho, which is a 5 hour drive from where I'm at.  The 318is I got in 2010 with 43K miles on it.  The original doctor owner had just held onto it for so many years for sentimental reasons as it was his first new car after graduating medical school and it was only his daily driver for those first few years.  While other 318is owners were going through the dreaded M42 profile gasket failure back in the mid 1990s, that happened for the first time on my car shortly after buying it in 2010!  The buyer on that car who is back in New Hampshire, really got a good price even though it was a BaT record for a 318is--his knockout bid strategy with 5 days to go worked in that case to keep other bidders away.  In order to sell it, I had to convince myself I'd be OK never owning another E30 because I know I'll never find another that lives up to that one.  But, I found out over the previous years since buying the '71 2002 in 2017 that 3 older cars is one too many (to be able to give them proper attention and get enjoyment from driving them) in my current situation of having a full-time job and family.  Ultimately I just prefer the older cars (BMW, Alfa, Lancia) to the ones from the E30 period--I was lucky enough to have owned an E30 M3 for a dozen years as well so that's crossed off the bucket list.  My favorite E30 is actually the 325iX and I owned a couple of those as well.

I was also a CCA member starting in 1992 until the later 2000's when the 2002 and E30 content wasn't enough for me to justify continuing (also the closest chapter to me is near 3 hours drive).  So I've seen lots of 02 Cents Worth columns over that period (thanks much for all your efforts there and here!) as well as Hack Mechanic.  The September 1996 30-year anniversary Roundel issue for the 1600/2002 (exactly 25 years ago now, the one where @thehackmechanicadvised buying a clean tii for $4,000) is one I still look at all the time for all the 2002 related articles--how many folks here have that issue where 02PrincessLisa @Lisa.02Pfirst introduced herself in a letter+picture to the editor as a first-time 2002 owner?  Second place for best 2002-related Roundel issue I will give to the December 2002 issue as "The Year of the Car of the Year" issue that included, among others, the article about David Hoovler's pumpkin '71 2002 @dlhoovler

My mechanic friend who now lives a couple hours' drive away, but I still have him do all the bigger stuff on my older cars, did the suspension on my '71 so he's already experienced on that job as well as having the lift and all the other tools needed so that's an easy decision to hand off to him.  He and Steve at BluntTech, with his wealth of advice and access to the parts needed, are my primarily enablers in this hobby.

Steve @Conserv, thanks for confirming the month of production with the RealOEM link.  My molded carpets don't even need more than an in-car shampoo from what I can see.  There are no holes--just a small tear and some other untidiness around the pedalbox area.  Well, technically there are the holes created to put those little 4" speakers in the kick panels, but if I ever remove those I'll just go to an Esty carpet kit (at least no holes in the door panels with this one as there were with my last '71 2002).  The thin rubber floormats on there now cover some salt and pepper carpeted mats so it's protection on protection with those hand-cut rubber mats.  But, I agree Cocomats are needed and the order has been placed so it's just the 3-4 week wait now.

-Gary

6 minutes ago, Son of Marty said:

Love both cars, for me if it hadn't been BMW it would have been Alfa, for sure, would love to find room for one. 

The Lancia Fulvia coupes and Fulvia Sport Zagatos are just great cars too.  But, I was only finding good candidates in Europe ($90K for that Fulvia Zagato with the Donald Osborne provenance on BaT is too rich for my blood)  and given the extra hassle with buying that remote (Italy especially is a burden with "deregistering" cars), time before getting the car, importation costs and worry about it the whole month+ trip across the Atlantic (and through the Panama Canal and up the west coast to Tacoma for me), all added to a not very favorable Euro/USD exchange rate right now (feels better to buy out of Canada, probably how Europeans feel buying out of the U.S. now), and I just didn't find anything that worked for me 100% like I did with the tii.  I was also extrapolating my experience in trying to find a Fulvia with what it would be like for sourcing parts.  Both the BMWs and Alfas are known quantities to me for that in terms of knowing that what I really need I can get even if some of the obscure stuff like trim bits for any old car can be hard to find.

-Gary

Just put in the Cocomats order after seeing that terracotta option!  Might not be a perfect match for Granatrot, but I think it fits the character better than black/red since Granatrot is kind of a mellow red.  Maybe they've got more confidence in their template now and won't send out the paper pattern, we'll see.

An Esty carpet kit was my next thing to do on my '71 as it had original carpets showing wear in a few places, but I'd also want to do Dynamat and that's viewed as a way to hide rust in floors when selling (and that '71 was just incredibly original and solid so I didn't want to hide anything) so I decided to leave that carpet decision to the next owner.  The original carpets gave it a lot of patina as well without looking ratty so I think it was the right decision.  

That '71 did have the clutch MC go out on me and leak fluid in the pedalbox and I was glad at that point to have carpet that was quick to pull up and replace.

From all the evidence I have, this '74 tii has always been owned by "checkbook mechanics" rather than DIYers.  Fortunately, they've done right by the car even though it's amusing to go through a stack of invoices and see the same little issues like turn signals dealt with multiple times due to shops not doing the job right the first time.

-Gary

13 minutes ago, PaulTWinterton said:

Nice cars, both.  I'll only make one comment.  Cocomats!  

 

Cocomats.com

 

Welcome back to 02 (and tii) ownership.  Cheers!

Thanks Paul.  I know Cocomats well.  If you look at the BaT auction for my Granada '71, I bought the red/black mats for that and went through the whole exercise of customizing them based on paper templates they sent.  They really brought out the Granada paint color even if the paint job on that car was way below this tii.

On this car now, I was surprised to find the original solid grey molded carpet in really nice condition minus a bit of tearing around the pedal box reinforced vinyl area--not quite reinforced enough I guess.  They are in too nice of shape to replace even though I've already been annoyed to find I can't just pull back a driver floor carpet and get in the pedal box to adjust the clutch MC pushrod length because the clutch engagement point is too close to the top of the pedal travel for my taste. Instead, unless I can unhook the pedal from the MC by feel, I'll need to take out the console as well as the under dash panels to pull back the carpet far enough to get inside the pedalbox.

I was originally thinking it was a multi-piece replacement carpet kit because there are actually salt and pepper carpeted floormats underneath the thin rubber mats--two layers of protection for the original carpet helps to explain why it is so nice.

Ooops, now you got me to look at the Cocomats website again and I see there is what they call a "Terracota and black" that would be a great match for Granatrot.  I was thinking I would need to go red again (bright red has never been one of my preferred car colors, another down the list reason I sold the '71) and didn't think I would want that.  Now that I know they already want Granatrot 2002 owners to buy Cocomats based on their color offerings, I don't think I have a choice ?

Finally, here's my '73 Alfa Giulia Super (original Prugna color, very much an early 1970's period offering), which is a 2.0 transplant so it would be a pretty even race with the tii:

You might think there is some California history with this car given the grille badge.  Nope, the seller just really liked the flag design.  These are pics taken by the seller up in Calgary.  Here is a pic of the car loaded up on the U-Haul auto transport before I set out for back home a couple weeks ago.  Then the seller even bought and gave me this really cool Granatrot tii model even with the same alloy wheels as the actual car.  Only differences are the model has the Euro bumpers and is the Lux trim.

Here are a few pics of the '74 tii:

Greetings all,

After thinking I'd be out of the 2002 world for at least a few years when I sold my early '71 2002 on BringATrailer last November, https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-bmw-2002-45/, once I put it through a 3-year "sympathetic restoration" after buying it from the original owner, and then for good measure I sold my pristine low miles '91 318is in April, https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-bmw-325is-10/, I'm back!  This time it's a 1974 2002tii that I bought out of Calgary, Alberta, Canada (I'm in southeastern Washington state).

I got some crazy quotes for shipping in early August, like $3K to ship the car over the border from Canada to me less than 600 miles away, not including a broker they'd require me to use to get the paperwork to U.S. Customs at the border.  But once the border opened up for vaccinated U.S. citizens a few weeks ago, it only made sense to bring it home myself and I was able to transport it for a fraction of the quotes.  As a bonus, the U.S. customs office at the lonely northern Idaho border crossing I used didn't charge me the 2.5% customs duty so there was no extra cost buying from out of the country, so same as buying from a few hundred miles away within the U.S. and that would never happen if I was going with a shipper!  Having the original riveted VIN tag stating it was a U.S. model and the door jamb sticker stating it met all Federal standards may have also played into that decision by the customs agent.

The car was originally owned in Vancouver, B.C., and spent time in Kelowna, B.C. before Calgary, Alberta where I found it.  By this time Canada was getting U.S. spec cars, chassis number is 2781824 (tried emailing BMW archives to get the build date, but got the automated reply about their office move), and the only thing I can find that distinguishes this one is the metric speedometer/odometer.  Any help with getting a better idea when this came off the production line before BMW archives opens up again is appreciated.

Overall it is in cosmetically great condition with no rust and a nice quality repaint  (Granatrot appears to the original color as well based on what I see behind the glove box) that is holding up well after 20 or so years.  The only telltale from a life north of the border besides the metric speedo that I can spot is a thicker undercoating layer, which I think was a preventative measure later in the life of the car to keep rust from ever taking hold.  Clearly since the late 90's and early 2000's restoration work, it's been garaged and babied.

I've got a few things planned working with Steve at@BLUNTand a mechanic buddy of mine who used to own a repair shop locally doing the bigger jobs.  I'll be doing a 1-2-3 bluetooth ignition upgrade in the next week or two and likely turn a suspension redo over to my buddy during the late fall/winter.  There will be a few minor cosmetic items and anything else needed to bring it to top condition (new OEM door seals being one of those).  Fortunately, the to-do list is a lot shorter than when I started bringing back my original owner Granada '71.  I've figured out that any bigger projects like that will need to wait until I'm retired 5-10 years from now.

Then I'm planning a few fun changes in the personalization area.  That's starting with tossing the modern CD/MP3 player in favor of a period Blaupunkt or Becker.  A wood Nardi classic steering wheel and matching shift knob are also on that list.  Odds are also good that I'll be doing the bumper tuck thing front and rear--I don't mind the more bulky look of 5 mph safety bumpers at all, they just protrude way too far from the body so I'm willing to sacrifice function for form in that one area.  I'd consider a full Euro bumper conversion, but right now the paint and body is in just too good of condition for me to want to take it into a body shop to patch and repaint over the holes left by the original bumpers.

Right away most will notice from the pics I'll post next that the wheel arches are flared.  From what I was told by the seller, the owner who did the repaint and some other restoration also had this done where the original metal was reformed rather than anything being fabricated.  There is no evidence that this was for fitting wider wheels as those are the period OEM 5x13" FPS (same style as Mahle) bottlecap alloys on there (in amazing condition).  So that owner must just have really wanted that  later '70s/early '80s look (close to an E21 or E24 to my eye).  I would have kept it original myself, but the overall condition was so nice I couldn't pass on it for that reason--no snorkel nose panel and matching engine number were more important to me in addition to a great paint job--the ultimate reason I sold the '71 knowing how much a good paint job costs these days.  Then the final unusual bit is that the antenna is mounted just behind the driver side C-pillar on the rear wing rather than on the A-pillar.  If I ever go for the Euro bumper conversion, I would certainly move that and get that hole patched over as well.

Based on what I learned with redoing the suspension on my '71, I'm planning a few changes this time.  Before I went with Ireland Engineering stage 1 springs and sway bars with the recommended Bilstein HD struts/shocks.  While it certainly handled great, that was just a little too "track-ready" for my taste.  This time I intend to go one step softer with both springs and damping, but I'm sure it will still be a top handler.  My first thought from reading threads here is Eibach springs and Koni yellow/sport struts and shocks.  The tii already has ST sway bars so I'm not planning any changes there.  If it seems prudent it will get a full rubber bushings kit courtesy of BluntTech.  Any feedback on those plans, specifically regarding the choice of springs and shocks, is appreciated.  From what I've read, H&R progressive springs would also give a bit softer ride than Ireland stage 1, but those may still be a little stiffer than the Eibachs.  It's really hard to tell from the subjective impressions people give in FAQ posts.

I apologize for the length of this "introduction", at least to those who made it this far!  I'm a long-time 2002 and E30 enthusiast also into Alfas, as might be guessed from my username.  I'll post a pic of the '73 Giulia Super I brought over from Belgium back in 2007 and is now the stablemate for the tii.  This is my 4th 2002 and I've owned 4 E30s as well all over the past 30 years.  I was originally looking for either a Lancia Fulvia or an Alfa GT Junior (the bigger engines ones being out of the price range I could justify for this purchase) after selling my last two BMWs, most likely out of Europe and got very close to buying a couple times in the past few months, but never pulled the trigger.  Then this tii came on the market and it just felt too right not to act on even being not at the top of my candidate list (frankly, based on BaT prices, I thought I was priced out of a nice tii, even a big bumper square light '74 model).

Cheers,

Gary