Cool old BMW vs cool old Porsche.....

[achilles]

Hey All,

Being the lover of german money pits that I am, I have taken a real shine to 1966-70 911's. I have begun to read up as much as I can about these little beasties, and am looking at a 911t (carbed ) as something fun to use as a weekend car. I am not interested in anything newer or faster and love the look of the older machines. I know all the old german car caveats that apply to our beloved 2002's will apply in spades to the 911's, but am positive that some of you own or have owned both machines in the past. I haven't driven one yet and was curious as to how they drive in comparison to a 2002 (I have a tii), and to the ownership joys and hardships that come along with a more expensive german toy. Anyone care to add thier two cents?

Cheers, Chris[/i]

[Anschauer]

Well for one thing it sure wont handle the same and that's putting it mildly.

Better to post this on a 911 Porsche board IMHO

[surfcitydude2002tii]

I would look for a '68- '70 911T or S. They are fantastic cars with alot of giddy-up and contrary to other opinions, they handle great being rear engined. Like 2002s, they are getting rusty and a good exaple is the only way to go. I also drive a tii, but I would love to have an early 911 as well. The 912 is also fun. Fun to drive and much less expensive to drive and maintain.

[norm]

I sold last year a really clean California black plate 1969 912 for a little under 10k. Super fun little car. Have you considered a 912. I like the look of the pre-68's better. They share the cool green gauges from the 356 and have clean lines with chrome tiny bumber-ettes. People tend to keep Porsche's stock.

Norm

[bmcallister]

I owned a much newer 911 than what you are looking for, but it was air cooled (1985).

Figure on about two or three times the price of most parts.

Certain things will get very expensive very quickly, for instance if you need any transmission work. Most anything on the transmission is an engine out operation. Not many mechanics around who really know them very well. The car is more complex than a 2002, so this can be a real sticking point when you are looking for a good mechanic.

The vintage you are looking for is before they started building them with galvanized steel. Rust is always a serious concern. I don't know if it would be any more so with a 911 than with a 2002 though.

For an air-cooled Carrera, the "magic number" was $20-$25K, and the rule of thumb was that "they are all $20-$25K cars." Some are very low mileage and thus more expensive. But for the rest of them, subtract what you paid for car from that, and you basically have your maintenance/repair budget for the next couple years. I don't know what the "magic number" would be for the vintage you are interested in.

BUT, these are fantastic cars. They are extremely satisfying to drive fast. Always respect the rear end in turns. Lift-throttle over steer can be pretty severe, so always keep your foot in it once you are committed to going through the turn.

Good luck!

[thehackmechanic]

I started off, like you, wanting a pre-74 Porsche with small chrome bumpers, but living in New England and owning a bunch of pre-74 small chrome-bumpered BMWs that had to be kept off the road in wet weather because they rot, reality got the better of me.

I believe that 911 bodies were galvanized starting in 1975, so '75 and after don't have the automatic restoration-threatening rust that '74 and older ones have. But the 75 through 77 cars also have 2.7 liter engines that, like with BMWs, ran hot due to the first flush of emissions controls. These mid-70s cars (identifiable because they have the big bumpers but don't have the rear fender flares that are on the 911SCs and later cars) are probably the least desirable 911s.

The cars that came after were the 911SCs, made, I believe, 78 through 83. They are basically 911s with the bugs worked out of them. Don't let the year fool you-- although they have CIS injection, by modern standards they are primitive cars, bereft of power steering, ABS, and air bag.

I finally took the plunge about five years ago and bought one -- a metallic brown 1982 911SC with a targa top and a whale tail. I absolutely love it. If you've driven beetles or other air-cooled rear-engine VWs, the sounds and smells of the car are instantly familiar.

The much-publicized "trailing throttle oversteer" issue with 911s (where, if you lift off the gas in a curve, the rear end comes around) was largely tamed by the time the SC was built; the fat tires and big sway bars do wonders. If you like mid-70s BMW, you will feel very much at home in a 911SC -- very connected to the road through the car, lots of steering feel. What is very different in a 911 than a BMW is, because the car has a lot of positive castor (like rake in a motorcycle), the steering wants to come back to center. When you start driving one and push it hard around an entrance ramp, initially it feels totally foreign as compared to BMWs, but it is addictive, and you begin to look forward to it. So, like an older BMW, it has a lot of steering feel, but the sensations that it transmits are very different because the geometry is very different.

One of the few downsides of the SC is that the gearbox and linkage feel like you're driving a beetle; it's a bit clunky and notchy, not at all like the silky-smooth German jewel-type gearing we BMW guys are accustomed to. I can't remember the year that they changed the gearbox.

Older chrome-bumpered 911s are expensive. SCs you can readily find for $10k and less (I paid $9950 for mine -- as I like to say, the cost of a used Honda Civic). The cars that came after the SC in 1984 was the 3.2 liter Carrera, which has Motronic ignition. Nothing explicitly wrong with these, but they're more money.

If you have a hankering for an "older 911," I'd strongly encourage you to at least check out a 911SC. I don't think you'll regret it.

--Rob

[auggiemize]

If you dont care so much about "newer and faster", buy a stray dog...a 914. Better handling than any of the "moment of inertia" rear engined cars, less expensive than in every category, VW engine, Targa top that comes of and goes on in one minute, four times the luggage space that a MR-2 has. Plenty of fun and power for most anything or anywhere you want to go. Not pretty enough for someone to think its a real Porsche and want to vandalize it. 911 guys wont want to rub elbows with you, but in some cases, that's not a bad thing. Sorry 911 guys, but you good guys know what I mean...Mine has been apart, sitting, re-painted, de-rusted, ready to be put back together for 4 years...I think you have inspired me to get off my rear (or, rather mid-engine) and get her back on the road. Its a very good option for a Porsche, just not as seductive. Or expensive. Good luck with whatever choice, they're all fun.

76 Nevada 02

76 Taiga 02A project

74 Polaris 3.0cs

72 Baikal 3.0csa project

74 914 some assembly required....

[72Golf]

I have a 1966 Porsche 912 , 5 gauge, 5 speed and also a '72 BMW 2002. Both cars are beautiful examples of German engineering. On a beautiful day like today, with the sun shining and both cars clean and ready to wag their tails, it's a tough decision to choose. Depending on how aggressive I want to drive or if the "old lady" is coming along usually is the decider. If I'm alone, I choose the '02, just because it's so damn much fun and I can beat the snot out of it and if I break it, well parts are a heckova lot cheaper than P car parts. If I feel more civil or have a passenger (read momma) Then it's the 912 because her a-- doesn't slide all across the car when I turn and it's loud enough that I can't hear the screams. Both are fast, both are fun but a Porsche fender costs about $700 if you bang one up and hard to find and getting harder whereas an '02 fender can be readily had for a couple hundred in beautiful shape and 'new for half the cost of Porsche. Let's not even talk about motors... trash an '02 motor and pick up a decent runner for a grand, trash a P motor and bend over!

[pureaudio]

I don't have a tii but my father in law owns a 74 tii and 67 912. They drive fairly similar in my opinion aside from steering and being able to beat the snot out of the BMW and it just begs for more. The tii also has more power but his motor is slightly built up to. What made him go for the 912 instead of a 911 was maintenance and reliability. He is right about 10k for the price of the car and paint/suspension/tires...etc. For 10k he has a great car, for a 911 it would have been a much higher number.

[us4736]

heres my dune buggy with a 66 2.0 lilter with solex carbs http://s668.photobucket.com/albums/vv41/us4736/911%20motor/ sorry try this http://s668.photobucket.com/albums/vv41/us4736/911%20motor/911-2/

[boxy02]

That's funny, I'm in the other situation...I drive a 1977 Porsche 930 on the street and track. It handles like it's on rails and it's very fun to throttle-steer. My 74 2002 will be my first BMW, and I've heard that they can handle even better! I can't wait to experience it! (of course, the obligatory pic...) I hear the early 911s are a complete joy to drive...you should definately try one out!

[jgerock]

Older Porsches have bottom-pivot pedals just like VW's and 2002's.

Watch out for leaky A/C systems in 911's. Year ago, I spent many hours crawling in and under them using a freon "sniffer". The battery tray (under the front hood) is famous for rusting out.

I would love to own a 911SC from the '80s, but fear the cost of ownership (timing chain tensioners anyone?).

[bmcallister]

Achilles,

The forum that is basically the same as our FAQ here is:

www.rennlist.com

There is also a forum through Pelican Parts, but Rennlist is more active.

Good forum overall. It is divided into many forum sections. I recommend you go to the 912 Forum and 911 Forum. If I remember correctly, the 911 forum spans many years. From the chrome bumpers through the SC and Carrera, all the way up to and including the 993 (1998 model year!). But they are all air-cooled flat sixes...

There is a very good 30 or so point PPI form.

You may also want to find yourself a copy of a small "book" called "The 911 Story" written by Pete Zimmerman. This gives you a very quick overview of the history of the cars, year-to-year differences, and most importantly weak points specific to years and what to look for (with some photos).

Pete Zimmerman is pretty much viewed as THE expert on air cooled 911 cars. He does post on the forum somewhat actively, or at least did up until two years ago. His "book" (5x7 size paper, spiral bound) I'm pretty sure is out of print but you can find a used copy.

If you wind up buying a "P car" buy the best one you can reasonably afford.

Once again, good luck to you!!

[thehackmechanic]

The two updates that the SCs need (I lied when I said they had all the bugs worked out of them) are the Carerra-style oil-fed timing chain tensioners, and the "pop" valve in the airbox. Regarding a/c, my car had a dead old-style piston compressor. I replaced it with a newer rotary-style Sanden compressor. Jim is correctly remembering the a/c hoses that run the length of the car, beneath the car. I assumed that I should replace every one, then looked at them carefully, how they passed through holes beneath the car, and how they attached to the condenser in the front, and realized that a) I'd have to undo 25-year-old threads that had never been removed, and I'd have to have them custom-fabricated and crimp the ends on, and elected to leave them alone. I top off the freon every two years, and it works fine.

[Guest]

I LIKE the cars in your garage.

I bought my '70 911 Soft-window S/E from a Porsche-Nut who needed a down payment on a new 930. (He's been trying to buy it back from me ever since).

My '73 Tii is way more smiles per mile than the 911.

mac.