engine and drivetrain mechanical fuel supply system and turbo for M10's

[Guest Anonymous]

Had posted originally on the project section, but it is more of a tech subject at this momnet.

I know the factory turbo cars all had a mechanical K-fisher pump that was tuned and enhanced for the KKK turbo system. So I am fairly positive this can be achieved today still without EFI or ECU controls like with an aftermarket device such as Megasquirt.

Some may say WHY? It is a hassle, hard to control, impossible to tune, etc... I say you are probably right, although there remains a certain sport to pulling it off.

I was thinking of doing this using the tii system and turbo plus a boost metering fuel delivery assistant. The Bosch K-Jetronic fuel distributor looks to be the perfect part.

I'm roughly figuring an electronic secondary pump at 45 + PSI and bypass return lines to the tank. The idea would be to tune the airmass meter in the K -Jet to operate only when the desired boost comes on. Otherwise the regular tii mech injection would run the motor at lower bar pressure. Air intake would be fed through; with a little extra psi provided by the spooling turbo until the full boost is in effect. My thought is the turbo might overcome the fact that the normal air volume would be choked down as a result of the longer and narrower passage from the air filter to the throttle body. The whole system would be mechanically pumping; as usual, and is aided by the electronic K jet system under boost.

I have not been able to decide if tii injectors would need to be tuned for higher volume (possible?) or are there other Bosch injectors off the shelf that flow a higher rate available.

Another concern is to add a check valve in series from the K-Jet to the K-Fish at what point? Closet to the injector or at the beginning of flow at the K-fish pump?

Can or should, the plastic injector lines be tapped into with a splitter and interlaced with the secondary fuel supply line? In not, then how to run two injectors at the same port? Or is that redundantly stupid?

I have been reading a little about diesel engines having elaborate mechanical fuel pumps. Just wondering if there is anything there worth investigating further.

Any of you serious tuners have experience in turbo’s with non EFI turbo systems?

[_z_]

Have a read of how Wes Ingram modifies the KF pumps to match different fuel curves etc. That might be the way to go

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,57/page,viewtopic/t,211527/highlight,wes+ingram/

[TobyB]

It's certainly possible to mod the kfish pump.

That'd be my suggestion-

don't try to add plumbing,

just hijack the original 'metering' system in the

pump, run it from a more itelligent controller (some form of computer), add a MAF and sensors, and you're 7/8ths of they way there.

The kfish hi pressure side is not to be opened lightly...

but the metering is pretty crude. You could do better, and

gain more flexibility from it.

Good luck- it's not going to be easy.

t

[Guest Anonymous]

It's certainly possible to mod the kfish pump.

That'd be my suggestion-

don't try to add plumbing,

just hijack the original 'metering' system in the

pump, run it from a more itelligent controller (some form of computer), add a MAF and sensors, and you're 7/8ths of they way there.

The kfish hi pressure side is not to be opened lightly...

but the metering is pretty crude. You could do better, and

gain more flexibility from it.

Good luck- it's not going to be easy.

t

TobyB thanks for the input:

kinda missed the point of a non-intelligent ECU, sensors, EFI system, however I have not ruled out 36-1 tooth gear drive for the ignition plus an optical pick up. Other than that, I'm going for a low tech approach for the fuel delivery. I might talk with the UK folks mentioned above, but I have a budget limit that is driving the project on “How to cheaply and cost effectively turbo charge your tii.” Hope to post the results here someday.

PLUS

It is more about the chase and less the Kill. Ya know bone yards, misc hardware brackets, figuring it out and sourcing the necessary parts like check valves and rubber boots.

[Marty]

If I understand you correctly you want to plumb the k-jet into the high side of the k-fisher lines to add fuel during boost, this may be problematic as the k-fisher high side is running 500 to 700 psi and the k-jet is running around 60-75 psi.

[Guest Anonymous]

If I understand you correctly you want to plumb the k-jet into the high side of the k-fisher lines to add fuel during boost, this may be problematic as the k-fisher high side is running 500 to 700 psi and the k-jet is running around 60-75 psi.

That is my initial thought, but I am growing concerned that you're telling me the K-fish is pumping 700 psi? I had no idea it was that high, is this correct? It seems as though the lplastic ines would not be able to handle that pressure. I have heard the tii injectors open at 45psi which made me think the system was not that high.

How is it that the K-jet; which is nothing more than a fuel distributor with an electric pump providing the fuel pressure, runs the m10 at high rpm and engine demands for that system. Granted it is not a turbo, but compared to the tii motor it sounds like the fuel system is max capable of 100 to 125 psi on 320i's.

your K-fish psi #'s seem really high? If it can be tuned to run that kind of pressure; I think all I have to do is turn the screw and UP the pressure on the Kfish and run braided lines.

Although I have talked to a BMW Turbo mechanic and he said that the standard tii pump won't cut it and it will lean out under boost.

But I was thinking of plumbing from the K-jet to the high side of the K-fish to add fuel during boost.

Am I crazy?

[Marty]

Yes the k-fish is a extreme high pressure system developed from a diesel pump. In my way of thought probably the best way to enrichen it to follow boost is to use a variable pressure relief valve controlled by manifold pressure so the higher the boost the higher the return pressure, the k-fish pump is simply a multiplier of the input pressure so more pressure on the pump inlet = more fuel out.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes the k-fish is a extreme high pressure system developed from a diesel pump. In my way of thought probably the best way to enrichen it to follow boost is to use a variable pressure relief valve controlled by manifold pressure so the higher the boost the higher the return pressure, the k-fish pump is simply a multiplier of the input pressure so more pressure on the pump inlet = more fuel out.

I was reading on Wes-ingram's website the part of his manual for SPICA pumps and the output. They are 350+PSI.

Well there goes my theory on lower PSI, appearently these low #'s were from EFI systems, which I am not going for.

I am kind of liking the idea of a manifold pressure actuator. Perhaps a high perf modification to the K-fish to maximize the output. I will call Wes on Monday.

Yoy think the K-Jetronic fuel distirbutor can handle up to 700psi?

My thought is to run the K-fish output to the KJ and use it as the variable pressure relief.

Now do you think I am nuts?

[Jack]

On my turbo motor, after five attempts to get the A/F right on the KF by re-profiling the cam on the k-pump, we finally gave up. Hans, (what is his last name) called his old friend, one of his long since retired Kf engineers who worked on the original turbo project and he said you are wasting your time trying to get the fuel thru the kf. That is not to say that it cannot be done. Just that Kugelfischer chose not to do it. Anyway my motor was dynoed at Korman's and Ray couldn't get it off idle without it going lean. There is no joy in a lean running turbo motor. After 5 attempts I followed Ray's and Corky Bell's suggestion to go with a 5th injector and we used an HKS, Addititonal Injector Controller (pt # 406176) which is tied to boost and rpm to fuel the hi rpm range.

This whole thing got started because the "ultimate driveability mod" for the factory turbo was the Garret conversion, which I chose to do. Of course, everyone who recommended it had never dynoed one of the modified motors so... Anyway, I will say that it is a hell of a drive with its current system. All of my mods would be reversable if I get the kkk rebuilt and change the intake tube back. Oh, I also added a small intercooler where the battery went. Read Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost". I'm not very sharp on these systems and that book helped me understand the issues really well. As well as not being very sharp on turbo motors I am also not at all sharp at posting photos so I can't put one up, but some of the guys have shots of the motor. Perhaps they will post it. Or you can look in the archives.

A turbo'd M10 is a hell of a ride in a 2100# car. As Korman said on my maiden voyage, "Jack, I don't know about the new M3's but the E30 and E36 M3's had better stay clear of you in this" Of course, I've never driven it over 65 so I can't say, but it gets to 65 in a hell of a hurry.

[Guest Anonymous]

Jack,

The fifth injector sounds interesting. Where in series did you "inject" the fifth injector? Also I assume this an ECU monitored device?

Further up the string there is a suggestion to "up" the fuel PSI to the K-Fish INLET during boost and thus using the multiplier effect of the distributor to increase the injector PSI. More fuel in more fuel out, it sounds simple but the high pressure side of the K-fish worries me. How to tap into the fuel delivery system at these pressures?

Your fifth injector scenario: What does this take the fuel PSI up to?

I have been thinking about wiring in a High voltage fuel pump relay that kicks in only during boost to up the current from say 11 volts to like 14 to give the pump higher pressure.

Thought would be to run this "kicker" electric pump to the K-Fish inlet and have a manifold pressure actuator to trigger the relay.

I just can't seem to connect the dots between the k-Fish system and the increased fuel supply required under boost.

There seems to be enough misc. parts out there to make anyone of these scenarios happen, but the missing element is how not lean run the engine.

[TobyB]

kinda missed the point of a non-intelligent ECU, sensors, EFI system, however I have not ruled out 36-1 tooth gear drive for the ignition plus an optical pick up. Other than that, I'm going for a low tech approach for the fuel delivery.

Yeah, if you don't want electronics, I think you're in the market for a turbo

2002 kfish pump. IIRC, they had a (larger stroke? bigger bore?) than the

N/A pump and a radically different cam profile.

Going low- tec with a turbo isn't going to be trivial if you want to retain

the high- pressure tii system. It's not at all like hanging a blower on a honda...

Yes, the kfish is a positive- displacement 5-700 psi pump.

If you cut one of the plastic lines, you find that the ID is maybe 2mm, while

the OD is 8mm... it's all plastic, very little fuel.

I've seem them split- I've also seen broken Spica lines, and they look similar-

except that Spica used metal.

good luck...

t

[Jack]

Again, my technical level is not real high on this. It seems to me that you can try to mod the k-pump, but I guess I have to ask why? The k-fisch is recognized as an excellent system as supplied, but it does have limitations to where you can take it...easily. It is mechanical. There are good smart people out there who I am sure can get it done, but after all the attempts to make my pump do "more", I, and my checkbook, finally gave up and went with the 5th injector. It has its own fuel pump, so the HKS (boost and rpm actuated) makes the pump when the limits are made and you suddenly go fast. This is a 200 hp, 6.9:1 cr running max 8.5# of boost. Turbo pulls in at 1500 rpm and is full boost by +/-2300rpm. By 5500rpm it is time to shift, so it is not a high rpm motor. Pat Allen is your guy if you are looking to go hi boost, hi power. Send me an e-mail at jackfre@verizon.net and I'll send you some pics.

[Harv]

Back in the day, a friend built a turbo Alfa GTV. We just fired off the cold start circut at 3lbs of boost on the Spica system. That and 94 octain gas did the trick. I hate to say it but I'm not that familiar with the Kfish....... Can you electronicly engage the cold start system on the KFish?

CIS goes rich with a drop in Control pressure, not injector or fuel pump pressure. That's what the Lamda valve (the little buzzing thing) does on KEJetronic cars. If you must use CIS (KEJetronic) use the system from a 240 Turbo Volvo. It can give you more fuel than you will ever..... probably use.

John

[PatAllen]

turbo and non-turbo k-fish pump are basicaly the same, so i think one could use a bone stock k-fish pump and simply add the boost sensing device that bolts at the back of the pump. Probably not easy to find but seems to me like a way to go (i id do it myself).

It is a boost sensing diaphragm or piston that moves according to boost# and alter the lever movement of the pumping pistons into the pump, just like the enrichement system wen the engine is cold (dont mixt it up with the 5th start injector itself)

I am sure someone could hack this and alter the movement of the piston according to different boost levels.

less spring tension to make it run richer with same boost level or create a leak at its boost presure port to make it run leaner at same boost level...almost like altering a wastegate to make more boost.

But i guess i have to ask, what do you want to do exactly and why ??

there is no such thing to make a 0$ turbo system out of parts laying around, if it is what you plan to do imho.

If you dont want to mess up with the k-fish pump but still want to use it, get a 5th injector controler. Flow rate#presure of the stock electric fuel pump on a Tii is good enough to feed 200hp i think, otherwise its easy to upgrade.

So it is simple, get that injector controler, try to use the 5th injector (cold start injector) as the main injector enrichement...i dont know its flow rate so one must try it before calling it too small. someone may already did try it..??

If not enough, confirmed by consisten test with a wide band 02 sensor, then plumb a "real" 5th injector controled by the choosen module, off of the feed line to the k-fish pump and your done.

check SDS web site for a very cheap 5th injector controler.

hth

[Harv]

I guess you could blow through a 32/36. Make the secondary boost operated and jet it rich. Put boost to the vent side of the mechanical fuel pump. Run about 6 lbs of boost.

John