Distributor curves/timing for '76 Automatic CA - 123ignition

[Mark92131]

3 hours ago, awesomade said:

And I just noticed that the gap is almost non-existent. I will give an update in a few minutes. UPDATE: There is no gap at all right now at the contact breaker. Gosh ... That's wrong I guess. Haha

 

Yeah, that's not right...  Turn the Fan/Fan Belt or bump the starter to rotate the distributor until the block on the points sits on the highest point of the distributor shaft lobe, (circled in Red on left).  Adjust the points using the attached procedure for a gap of .016".  Button it up, start it, and adjust the timing using the attached procedure.  Once this is done we can address your other issues.

 

Mark92131

 

 

[02sahara]

@Hans

Yes, the pully marks and pointer is just what I circled in red. I already did that.

And yeah on the flywheel should also be something, but that's the 25° check ball mark. (But haven't seen it live yet. Just in the handbook.)

 

TDC is properly set to #1.

 

I never removed the dizzy, no.

 

Shall I turn the dizzy a bit so that the lobe (thanks, that's what it's called in English) is aligned with TDC properly ... So TDC @ lobe #1 fully open ...? 

I assume that would be 0° static timing, or am I wrong?

[02sahara]

@Mark92131

Yeah, I already did that and adjusted the contact breaker gap properly to 0.4 mm. That should be fine now.

 

Just waiting for info regarding static timing ... That's what I asked about the lobes and TDC. And then I would check ignition timing. But I only have a timing light and no tachometer (as 123 would have shown that to me).

 

But anyway, if I've got the info about TDC and lobe setup, I will start the engine tomorrow and probably send the 123 dizzy back and save the money for something else.

[Hans]

the dizzy lobes that open the points only come into play when adjusting the gap. After that, ignore them. Is the picture is of t he pulley from under car? Not clear if that is the pointer or the tdc mark. The tdc is usually marked OT.

Usually visible from above on crank pulley with real pointer. Otherwise Look for it on flywheel .

Are you sure you have tdc on firing stroke for # 1?

A

Do you have an old plug in #1 wire to check for spark? The plug should fire as you pass tdc. Or try the method of turning the dizzy that I described above.

The 25 deg ball requires the engine to running. You could alsu use the timing light connected to #1 wire for static check.

[Hans]

[Hans]

Photo above shows pulley marks for TDC I am familiar with. you can see the pointer. You may not have one.

Also search on youtube for "Timing Your VW Engine - Static Timing Method". Some Auzzie chap. The principles apply to your engine. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Hans
more

[John76]

On 3/29/2022 at 6:55 PM, Hans said:

Static Timing Method

The second mark on the pulley is the 3 deg. BTDC for static timing. Use a 12V bulb. One wire to the - terminal on the coil (or condenser lead) on distributor and the other wire to ground. Rotate engine clockwise. Light should go on when the static timing mark is opposite the pointer. If not, rotate the distributor until it does.

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by John76
Correction

[Hans]

The youtube clip says to use neg side of coil.

My recollection is that it is the same dist terminal that receives the cue from the dist/points starting to open and activates the coil.

 

Yes, 3 deg before tdc. I was thinking of my NK CS. So maybe a few mm before tdc mark. But I think even 0 would get it going.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Hans

[02sahara]

So, first of all: The photo I posted is to show you the pointer and the marks. I understood that.

But anyway, I aligned all the marks and set the static timing properly (youtube video method; that I have also seen before in an more exhaustive video and it's in German, but might help the community with subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jUEnmfFcPc ):

 

• It took some tries to get it running (which could also just because it did not run for 3 months – would need to track the within the next days/weeks if it still persists), but it started.
• Once running, it idled very well; even though I just have the before reference, where I had to pump the pedal and/or keep the rpm high for the first minutes after start. I did not need to do anything to keep it running, so that's fantastic!
• Drove it for about 15 minutes and I noticed the following: a) Performance is definitely better than before (more power, better acceleration) and b) it (still) had misfires sometimes (but, not often).
• Once warmed up I took the timing light just to check how the timing marks are behaving: They are fairly stable, but not super tight. Jumping about 2 cm (maximum 1 inch).

I have no tachometer to check rpms and adjust timing dynamically; one reason why I thought 123 would be a good idea, which I will send back unless you tell me to put that one in?!

 

But maybe I don't even need to do anything unless it stops running like it does now and/or keeps starting bad. You tell me.

Cheers, Marvin

[Hans]

Good news! Does the timing light show the advance as you open throttle? Do you know how to adjust the valves?

[jimk]

Hard to understand why there are 4 pages of beating the old distributor setup to death when it's a dead horse anyway.  OP says he has a 123 distr, put it in and step into the new equipment.

1. install the 123 and follow the 123 instructions.

2. If you have the 3 degrees mark on the front wheel use it.  If not use the TDC mark.

3. Put a flat curve in the 123, all 3 degrees or 0 degrees depending on step 2. above. No tachometer needed.

4 Use the timing light and synchronize the 123 to your engine at any rpm, timing will be the same at any rpm in the flat curve.

5. Install the recommended timing curve in the 123.

6. Setup the economy advance (vacuum advance) by whichever method you select, i.e. port vacuum or manifold vacuum.

7. Throw the points distributor in the neighbor's pool.

[John76]

12 hours ago, John76 said:

+

Oops...meant to say -

[Hans]

3 hours ago, jimk said:

Hard to understand why there are 4 pages of beating the old distributor setup to death when it's a dead horse anyway.  OP says he has a 123 distr, put it in and step into the new equipment.

1. install the 123 and follow the 123 instructions.

2. If you have the 3 degrees mark on the front wheel use it.  If not use the TDC mark.

3. Put a flat curve in the 123, all 3 degrees or 0 degrees depending on step 2. above. No tachometer needed.

4 Use the timing light and synchronize the 123 to your engine at any rpm, timing will be the same at any rpm in the flat curve.

5. Install the recommended timing curve in the 123.

6. Setup the economy advance (vacuum advance) by whichever method you select, i.e. port vacuum or manifold vacuum.

7. Throw the points distributor in the neighbor's pool.

Well, in my defense, a lot of time was spent on various advance curve theories, and I thought it might be more useful to see if it would start before introducing another variable. Same with carb rebuild. But yes, I agree, 123 solves the possible worn distributor issues. Otherwise I would use Pertronix.

OP would still have to go through the finding TDC, etc., anyway. So now he knows how and the car runs.

For now, I would suggest first getting the valves adjusted, and then maybe try moving the mixture screw a bit each way to see what that does (keeping track of base point). Then consider 123.

[Mark92131]

7 hours ago, awesomade said:

• Once warmed up I took the timing light just to check how the timing marks are behaving: They are fairly stable, but not super tight. Jumping about 2 cm (maximum 1 inch).

I have no tachometer to check rpms and adjust timing dynamically; one reason why I thought 123 would be a good idea, which I will send back unless you tell me to put that one in?

 

I keep forgetting it is an automatic with no tach.  That 2 cm jump indicates a pretty worn distributor.  The 123 distributor is one of the best upgrades you can make and now that it is running, I would recommend you go ahead and install it.  It fixes your worn out distributor and allows you to quickly determine the best advance curve for your engine.

 

I'm not a big fan of using the front pulley timing marks for timing, the angles make it hard to line up the pointer, (if one is present) with the notches.  While your car is idling, carefully stick a pencil with an eraser on the end down the viewing port for the flywheel timing marks to clean off the ("Z") steel ball and (OT) TDC line so they are easier to see.  Once you find them with the engine off, you can use a sharp stick and some white paint to make them easier to see with your timing light.

 

Mark92131

 

 

[02sahara]

3 hours ago, Hans said:

Well, in my defense, a lot of time was spent on various advance curve theories, and I thought it might be more useful to see if it would start before introducing another variable. Same with carb rebuild. But yes, I agree, 123 solves the possible worn distributor issues. Otherwise I would use Pertronix.

OP would still have to go through the finding TDC, etc., anyway. So now he knows how and the car runs.

For now, I would suggest first getting the valves adjusted, and then maybe try moving the mixture screw a bit each way to see what that does (keeping track of base point). Then consider 123.

Exactly, and I am very thankful for all the support here – and most importantly I more and more understand how a car works, thanks to you and some hands-on practice. Really appreciate that!  What a nice community! If you (everyone of you) ever come to Cologne, Germany, I invite you to some German beer.

And yeah, I have the 123 already here, but if the car seems to run way better and (a few more drives will tell) good and acceptable for me, I might not need to upgrade, at least yet. So why spend almost 500 bucks for something I do not necessarily need (?!?) ... I rather save it for something else. Which doesn't mean I won't upgrade to 123 dizzy in the future but feel that it would make sense to get familiar with the car first (remember I basically just got it) and see when that becomes necessary (old dizzy<>old dizzy swap wouldn't make sense to me).

 

Just to make sure I don't need the 123 dizzy right now: Based on your experience, would there be huge benefits to if the old dizzy runs well/okay? I mean would I have a way better performance, way better cold starting, way better emission and things like that, to consider putting it in nevertheless? THAT'S MY MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION RIGHT NOW.
Edit: Sorry @Mark92131 that messages overlapped. Thanks for the explanation regarding the jumping marks = worn dizzy, which would actually be a understandable reason for me to use the 123. So if that is for sure the reason and there is no comfortable way to fix it other than getting a "new" distributor ... I will think about that now.
The only thing that makes me feel uncomfortable about that is that I noticed I do have a resistance wire (looks like speaker wire) instead of a resistor (that I wasn't able to find) if you know what I mean. And 123 with the blue coil I already have, requires to remove the resistor. So how about the whole wire instead?! Seems like a mess and high effort to connect the coil directly to the ignition as required. Am I over-thinking this?

 

@Hans Regardless of dizzy: Nope, I never did valve adjustments, and did not dig deeper into that topic yet, even though I roughly saw what and how it's done. Now that I am able to turn the engine by hand ... this seems fairly simple, right? I have a feeler gauge and as foreseeing as I am, already ordered a new gasket ... so I guess I would be good to go if I had a look into the service manual, the specs and some youtube videos. 

 

Have a good evening everybody

Edited March 30, 2022 by awesomade