Complete Hot-Rod 1600 Engine

[cagedbunny]

Price: $2000

Location: Raleigh, NC

Description:

Picked up this gem with a stash of other engines, trim, and ultimately a car as well.  Not the direction I intend to go with my ‘76, so moving some of the goodies along.  
 

Early 1600 block, 118 stamped head.   

Pulled the valve cover, pan, and cylinder head to check condition/for modifications, and here’s what was identified with the help of another FAQ member;

 

Aftermarket Norris cam

Aftermarket rockers

Upgraded oil spray bar

Upgraded valve springs and retainers

High-compression Mahle pistons

Balanced rotating assembly

Fresh rods; have oiling hole that may or may not be factory 

Possible upgraded oil pump; couldn’t find any stampings to identify 
 

This motor had an Alpina “bundle of snakes” header, and Weber 45’s before it came into my possession (sadly sold before I got it.)  It was most definitely someone’s track toy!
 

The engine turns over smoothly and without issue.  One of the rocker pads looks like it may be missing some of the pad, but there’s no signs of debris in the oil passageways, heads or pan.  Has likely been in dry storage for well over a decade, and obviously should be gone through before being run, but everything looks great condition-wise.  
Distributor is not pictured, but is included with the engine.

 

$2k or best reasonable offer.

Located in Raleigh, NC.  Can ship on the crate that’s built around it as well.

 

-Adam

cagedbunny@gmail.com

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by cagedbunny
Added contact info

[Conserv]

Very cool! Impressively-early engine: block cast January 5, 1967 (“5A67”) and installed in VIN 1516265, a February 1967 1600-2. And is that a November 1966 casting date on the 118 head (eleven nubs surrounding “66”)? Awesome!

 

Perfect motor to do a “1600ti thing” on that early 1600-2 missing it’s original engine!
 

GLWS,

 

Steve

 

[JWT]

man o man.......so tempted.......

[FunElan]

31 minutes ago, Conserv said:

Very cool! Impressively-early engine: block cast January 5, 1967 (“5A67”) and installed in VIN 1516265, a February 1967 1600-2. And is that a November 1966 casting date on the 118 head (eleven nubs surrounding “66”)? Awesome!

 

Perfect motor to do a “1600ti thing” on that early 1600-2 missing it’s original engine!
 

GLWS,

 

Steve

 

 

I have a 1600ti grille badge in the garage that I was thinking of eventually installing on my Caribe 1600 if I ever did this....

 

But the car currently has a 2.0. Not sure if I want to go backwards

[Conserv]

47 minutes ago, FunElan said:

 

... But the car currently has a 2.0. Not sure if I want to go backwards
 

Hmmm... I’m not certain, Matt, that a pair of sidedrafts on a 1.6-liter engine would be a step backwards... The 1.6 is a pretty sweet engine: a little more compression, a hotter cam, and a pair of sidedrafts makes up for a lot!

 

You could use Solexes for a more factory ti approach or Webers for a more... Alpina approach. Just thinking aloud... ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[Slavs]

That looks like a nice and interesting 1600 motor. Cool early valve cover !

Thanks for providing those piston crown and head thickness measurements.

 

As far as 1600 motors are concerned many 2002 mechanics and specialists are not familiar with them.

Furthermore, the factory 1600ti Mahle or KS high compression pistons in the 9.5 : 1 compression ratio are pretty rare these days. Yes, you can still obtain them new or NOS from a few sources in Germany, but for the most part they are not very common. Even the standard 8.6 : 1 compression pistons for the 1600 are a rare. Most of this stuff has been sold and / or dumped by parts suppliers in favor of the 2002 pistons and other parts. So, given all this, the standard 8.6 :1 1600 pistons are often mistaken for the higher compression 9.5: 1 1600ti pistons. The reason is simple; 02 mechanics make the mistake of evaluating the 1600cc engine components based on the 2002. Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the cylinder when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke to the ratio when it is at TDC or at the top of its stroke. In comparison to the volume of the cylinder the volume of the piston crown is negligible when the piston is at the bottom of the stroke, but becomes increasingly more relevant as the piston approaches TDC. When at TDC, the height of the crown or the volume of that crown is very relevant in comparison to the small volume of the compression chamber in the head. Because the 1600 has a short 71mm stroke and smaller diameter 84mm pistons it takes a much higher piston dome or crown to achieve the same impact on the compression ratio as a shorter dome has on a longer 80mm stroke and larger diameter 89mm pistons on a 2002 motor. That additional 9mm of stroke combined with the larger 89mm diameter pistons of the 2002 motor account for a big difference in volume in comparison to the 1600 motor. If you had those 6.33mm piston crowns on a 2002 motor with the 121 head, they would yield a compression ratio closer to 10.5 or 11 : 1.  But, on the 1600, they only yield a 8.6 : 1 compression ratio. The 9.5 : 1 high compression 1600ti pistons have a dome height of around 9mm while the 9.3 : 1 high compression pistons on the 2002Ti have a dome height of around 3mm-4mm.  Your pictured pistons appear to be standard 1600 8.6 : 1 pistons. But that does not detract that much from the motor as the block may have been decked to bump up the compression. I don't know if the head was milled because I forgot the specs for a factory head. Somebody here may correct me, but I think the pictured head is at or near full thickness. Given the rarity of 1600ti pistons, many 1600 hot rod engine builders used the standard pistons with a long duration cam. And, for the most part it worked.

 

An additional source of confusion is the pre-1968 BMW 1800cc motor and its variations as used in the 1963-68 NK 1800, 1800ti and 1800TISA. These motors also had 84mm diameter pistons like the 1600, but the additional displacement was achieved through a longer 80mm stroke, like that of the 2000cc motor which evolved from this early 1800. It is really easy to mistake these pistons for 1600 pistons unless you measure the pin to piston deck distance. The NK 1800 and 1800ti pistons also have a thicker 2mm top ring vs. the 1.75mm top ring on the 1600 and 1600ti pistons. The high compression 9.5: 1 1800Ti pistons are marked "Ti" on the crowns which are about 4mm-5mm in height and slightly shorter than the standard 8.6:1 compression 1600 pistons with a crown height of about 6mm. Even with the same diameter piston the impact of the piston crown on compression ratio is very different on a motor with a 89mm stroke vs. a motor with a 71mm stroke. So, another possibility is that your motor may have the early 1800 crank and 1800Ti pistons, but given your measurement of the crown height, I would conclude those are standard 1600 pistons unless you have 2mm of carbon build-up on top of them. Most 1800Ti pistons are stamped "Ti" on top of the crowns. Many of the listings on e-bay for 1600ti pistons are wrong as the pistons are most often the 1800ti pistons with smaller crowns. You can easily spot the 1600ti pistons as they have the very tall 9mm crowns. These 1800, 1800ti and 1800TISA motors are nearly forgotten history here in the US where everybody just throws in a 2 liter motor into everything. But, this is not the case in Britain where vintage racing rules are much more stringent. There are engine builders in Britain who are very familiar with these early 1800 motors.

 

I've attached pics, from top to bottom; 1600ti, 1600 and 1800ti pistons for comparison.

 

 

 

Slavs

Edited August 18, 2020 by Slavs

[cagedbunny]

I love the wealth of knowledge on this forum!  Thank you guys for the additional info!

 

If anyone interested needs pictures or measurements of other parts of the motor, just let me know, and I'll add some to the posting here as well.  

 

-Adam

[mccusername]

Wasn't this motor for sale on this forum recently, out of Wisconsin maybe? I bought the headers.

[cagedbunny]

Wasn't listed for sale, to my knowledge. The previous owner posted looking for information on it though over on the Neue Klasse forums, but hadn't done any invasive disassembly to verify internals.

[FunElan]

12 hours ago, Conserv said:

Hmmm... I’m not certain, Matt, that a pair of sidedrafts on a 1.6-liter engine would be a step backwards... The 1.6 is a pretty sweet engine: a little more compression, a hotter cam, and a pair of sidedrafts makes up for a lot!

 

You could use Solexes for a more factory ti approach or Webers for a more... Alpina approach. Just thinking aloud... ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

The alternative was building a 2.0 with the PHHs I've been collecting...

[mccusername]

12 minutes ago, cagedbunny said:

Wasn't listed for sale, to my knowledge. The previous owner posted looking for information on it though over on the Neue Klasse forums, but hadn't done any invasive disassembly to verify internals.

 

Yes that's the one. He sold off some other cool bits he found in that stash. Very nice guy.

Did you go get it and bring it to NC? Just curious, the transport issue is what kept me from pursuing it more.

[cagedbunny]

21 minutes ago, mccusername said:

 

Yes that's the one. He sold off some other cool bits he found in that stash. Very nice guy.

Did you go get it and bring it to NC? Just curious, the transport issue is what kept me from pursuing it more.

Super nice guy!  He was kind enough to drive it all down to Chicago where we met up, and hauled it back to NC.  Fun weekend trip for the girlfriend and I  ?

[bimbill]

For reference, here are a couple of images of a NOS Mahle 1600Ti piston, confirming the 9mm dome.  The third is a Venolia.  I need to determine what compression ratio it produces.  High, I think.

  

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by bimbill

[kbmb02]

1 hour ago, FunElan said:

 

The alternative was building a 2.0 with the PHHs I've been collecting...

 

A 2.0L provides 25% more displacement. But if one is sold on (determined to use) a 1600 block, a 2.0L crank and custom pistons would yield something, well, TBD....

 

Back to the OP: Cool 1600 engine. I’ve got some records on Norris camshafts, I’ll see if I have info on that grind. To my knowledge, that’s an early factory oil spray bar. -KB

Edited August 17, 2020 by kbmb02

[Slavs]

10 hours ago, kbmb02 said:

A 2.0L provides 25% more displacement. But if one is sold on (determined to use) a 1600 block, a 2.0L crank and custom pistons would yield something, well, TBD....

A 1600 block with 2.0L crank and custom pistons = early 1963-68 NK 1800cc(1773cc) motor with fully counterbalanced crankshaft. The fully counterbalanced crankshaft and "H" beam profile connecting rods made their debut in the 1800TISA at some point of its production run. The "Custom Pistons" would be BMW 1800, 1800ti or 1800TISA pistons, depending on the compression ratio you are looking for. These pistons are more readily available NOS than the 1600ti pistons. The 1800Ti was produced for 3-4 years while the 1600ti was only produced for a year.

 

BMW moved away from the long stroke 1800cc during 1968 when it re-designed the 1800cc motor to a 71mm short stroke configuration with larger diameter 89mm pistons as in the 2002. This resulted in a smoother motor as used in the later, post 1968, 1800cc NK, the BMW 1802 and the 1.8L BMW 320i (US 1980-83) and the e30 318i. Short stroke motors are smoother at the expense of bottom end torque.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Slavs