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Intercooler


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Looking for recommendations for intercoolers for my 1974 supercharged 2002 project.   Looks like something 14 x 12 x 3 will fit with no problems but all I seem to find (Setrab, Mishimoto, Summit, Frostbite) are units that are in the 21" - 30" range (L).  Not sure if these will fit without major surgery.

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I am guessing you didn't get much help here because most Turbo guys have all stock cars with no intercoolers. Have you considered trying to find someone who makes custom units? I am not sure about intercoolers on side by sides but have you considered looking at some of the units they might have? I am assuming they would be smaller in size. Would love to hear more about your car, if you want to post here or pm me about how your car is set up or will be set up. Good luck.

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OK, I'll chime in; to be effective it is not a "plug N' play" addition. Sorry.

 

So, in extremely general terms......

 

What is the purpose in so much as how long do you expect to be "on boost"?......10 sec burst? Probably not worth it, but you would have bragging rights; 30 sec pull? Perhaps. Always on boost? yeah, sure.

 

Next, you need to know the volumetric efficiency of your supercharger, and not just the amount of boost in psi. but the VOLUME at that psi. And coincidentally if your fuel system (you didn't note if it was carburetted, Tii, or EFI) is up to he task of supplying enough fuel under those conditions.  In addition you then need to calculate the delta of air temperature, ambient vs. discharge from the supercharger; the same as with a Turbocharged engine.

 

Was there a compressor map supplied with your supercharger so you can see the efficiencies at different RPM? 

What cam are you using, as that affects the volumetric flow at any RPM.

 

Then you need to calculate the pressure drop of your proposed intercooler (what is going to fit wherever you decide to put it) vs. the temperature drop at whatever speed (volume) you are running at and calculate the efficiency of the intercooler, could be 50% or 70% or something else. Remember, you must have sufficient air flow through the intercooler in order for it to do its job, so if you put it in the front nose, say ahead of the radiator, there might not be enough flow to be effective AND it might just restrict the air flow to the radiator. Perhaps locating it where an oil cooler is in the air dam for free flow.....

 

sized too big,  low pressure drop; too small,  high pressure drop.

 

You then need to calculate the BMEP of your NA motor, which then leads to estimating the effects of the supercharger w/o intercooler (at what temperature of the intake air and boost) and then with intercooler (new lower intake air temperature and pressure drop) so you can compare the efficacy of your build.

 

As with all supercharged and turbocharged engines, you REALLY need to have a knock sensor and AFR gauge or data collection.

 

HTH

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Thanks for the comments.   I am lucky to have three professionals with over 30 years experience each in high performance supercharged or turbo engines living in my area that are willing to help me and a fourth with 15 years experience installing EFI systems.... but none have supercharged an M10 engine before.   Bill has been in the business of supercharging virtually everything imaginable and currently makes superchargers for Harley Davidson motorcycles.   The second, Chuck is a machinist that makes parts for supercharged, turbo and high performance engines and chassis and including parts for Bill.  The third, Craig concentrates on high performance engine head flow, custom intake and exhaust systems.   Bill told me to build a stout M10 with no more than 8.5:1 compression and a stock cam.   Craig will design and build the intake manifold for (EFI/Megasquirt) after I give him the range of intercoolers that are available to me. Chuck will make the bits that need to be machined including the fuel rail.   As I mentioned in my post Bill recommended an Eaton M62 supercharger which I have obtained and turned over to him for rebuild/modification.  Craig said my job is to figure the max size intercooler that can be fitted (in front of the radiator) into a BMW 2002.  Craig will do the calculations and create the intake manifold working with Bill and the modified M62.   He'll tell me what size intercooler I need  and then I must find a quality manufacturer.   

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Looks like these guys can build you anything you want.  You give them how much room you have and where the hoses need to go and start from there.  

 

https://bellintercoolers.com

 

I am sure there are a lot of other companies that do exactly the same thing.  This was a single Google search for "Custom Intercoolers" 

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

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jackF;

 

Can you tell me a few things about the system?

 

Did you use the OE turbo, and if not what model, so I can look it up?

 

Were you able to measure the inlet and exit temperatures?

 

Were you able to measure any pressure drop?

 

Did you Dyno the car to find any Hp / Torque increase?

 

Thanks!

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Korman built the motor originally without the IC. It was dyno'ed in the 190 hp range with stock piston, CR, etc specs. It has a Garrett on it. Prior to going with the Garrett Ray and I spoke with folks from the UK, Germany and Holland. Everyone said it was the hot mod for the Turbo and was a drop in. Once on the dyno, the Garrett's issue stood out right away. Going back to all those who suggested it we found that none of them had dyno'ed them. You get in trouble by not asking the right questions;) Notice the 5th injector. The k-fisch couldn't handle the low rpm and was dangerously lean. Corky bell suggested the 5th injector with an HKS Controller. I drove the car to Lime Rock from NC and then home to MA for the summer. There ended up a few oil leaks, etc and I sent the car back to Ray for the winter, asking him to move the battery to the trunk while there. Ray, being an enterprising guy called and said, "You know, with the space we made with the battery move we could put a nice little IC in there. Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" was all I had to stay sane through this project and I have always remembered his comment. "Many people think and IC is icing on the cake, when in fact it is more cake." I went for it, but we did not dyno the result so I really cannot detail the numbers. I will say I was more comfortable driving the car with it. Could I tell the difference? Not really. It was damned fast anyway. For a driver, which I built it as, I think it an IC a worthwhile project. For the strict factory original guys not so much. There was a write up on the car in 12/09, Bimmer.

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Model of the Garrett, as a "drop in"?

 

190 Hp at the rear wheels or calculated for just the motor?

 

At what boost #, and was that measured before or after the Intercooler?

 

As an aside, the Kugelfischer pump CAN handle the low RPM IF you know the specifications of the Turbocharger unit, pressure drop if you use an intercooler and the temperatures of the charge air. It is not simple but it can be done. Same for estimating the HP.

 

This is going to sound harsh, but my sense is that most recommendations are really not an engineered solution, but a "plug N' play", "goes like stink from XXXX Rpm" but "there is this problem with X", so we did "this hack" to "make it work"....

 

That is why I ask for the specifications so that I can run the numbers and validate.

 

Thanks!

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19 hours ago, JackF said:

Also, this was prior to taking the car to Sports Car Restoration for the body, interior and cosmetics. It was a great experience. 

Your car was my favorite at Vintage at the Vineyards 2009 (Sterling Vineyards that time).  Really enjoyed inspecting it and talking with the SCR folks.

intercooler.jpg

b007766b.jpg

1f1804cc.jpg

Jim Gerock

 

Riviera 69 2002 built 5/30/69 "Oscar"

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Thanks, Jim, that was fun. I miss the crowd. Einspritz, I will not disagree as to the way this rolled out, but will offer this. the boost ran at about 8# as I recall, otherwise stock specs and components. My specifications to Korman were to "build a solid driver. Nothing fancy, nothing peaky. Build me a long living solid motor." Once the engine was built and dyno'd the lean issue was found. The k-fisch was pulled and sent to Hans to re-profile the cam, which he felt he could do...four unsuccessful times on and off the dyne. Hans then reached out to one of the long since retired original turbo engineers and was told to forget it, that the k-fisch would not be satisfactory. Corky Bell was consulted and the 5th injector was added solving the problem very nicely from a drivability and performance standpoint. Don't worry about harsh;), We are all friends here. You are correct that it was not an "engineered" from soup to nuts project. Every attempt was made to go stock but the kkk being shot and unavailable and everyone we spoke with touting the ease of adding the Garrett, never having dyno'd one. Well, it is why I said you are screwed not by the questions you ask but by those you don't.  I am unable to provide the numbers you desire also as the IC was added a year or so after the car left Korman and I did not have the engine pulled and dyno'd then. It was simply re-tuned. This was a very smooth drive and boost came in below 2000rpm. I also did not have the CR 5sp in the car but did add the OD5 and it was a relaxed powerful highway runner, giving up nothing in the curves. Given that the boost came in so low and smoothly all the CR would have done is have me rowing through the gears for no gain.

One of the things that Ray offered when I went down to pick up the car was that he never understood why he didn't, over the years, build more M10 turbo motors as it is really an ideal platform for turbocharging. Of course the hot set-up was the S-14, but as they become more and more rare, I think that a well designed and built turbo replacement motor is the answer for all the '02' & E30's out there looking for more power. I will turn the specification question back on you. What does that motor look like? What are the spec's for a good drop in motor for an '02 owner. How would you do it? What would it cost? I believe there is opportunity there.

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