76' wipers not functioning, relay gone bad?

[76inka]

Hi guys,

 

New to the forum, just bought a 76' 2002 and the wipers are not working, nothing happens when I put the wiper stalk in any position.  When I pull the stalk, the washer squirts with no wiper action.  After some research and reading on the forum, I checked the fuse, it was good.  Then I pull the relay off and I heard something is loose in the cover, so I carefully took the cover off and found two small metal pieces.  Does that mean the relay must have gone bad or would it still possibly be good?  I do not see any burnt or melting on the board, please see pics for reference.  I do not have any access to another good relay to try out, so I'd like to get some advice before ordering a new one.  Thanks in advance!

 

Cheers,

Alex

Edited May 7, 2017 by 76inka

[Healey3000]

Hi,

 

The first thing I'd check is whether the coil winding is okay.  If you have an ohmmeter, you can find where the wires go onto the PCB and check for an open condition.  If that's fine then apply voltage to the windings and see if anything "clicks".  It could be that the mechanism has come apart but since I've never opened one of these up to trace the circuit, I can't tell you much more.

 

If you can trace out the whole circuit, I'm sure the problem can be identified and rectified.  Could you take a few more pictures, please?  Take a top view and one each of the other sides and perhaps we'll spot something.

 

In parallel, confirm that your wiper motor is indeed okay.  Perhaps you can apply 12 volts directly to the motor to see if it works?

[ray_]

I think the '76 is different right? The '73 right stalk actuates the wipers by pushing in the end of the stalk.

 

But, '76 is not the same, right?

 

Cheers,

[76inka]

1 hour ago, Healey3000 said:

Hi,

 

The first thing I'd check is whether the coil winding is okay.  If you have an ohmmeter, you can find where the wires go onto the PCB and check for an open condition.  If that's fine then apply voltage to the windings and see if anything "clicks".  It could be that the mechanism has come apart but since I've never opened one of these up to trace the circuit, I can't tell you much more.

 

If you can trace out the whole circuit, I'm sure the problem can be identified and rectified.  Could you take a few more pictures, please?  Take a top view and one each of the other sides and perhaps we'll spot something.

 

In parallel, confirm that your wiper motor is indeed okay.  Perhaps you can apply 12 volts directly to the motor to see if it works?

Hi, thanks for the reply.  I just checked the coil winding, and it looks like some of them are melting, but I am not too sure.  Please see attached pics and let me know if you can spot anything wrong with it?  I will test the wiper motor with 12 volts tomorrow, hopefully it is not the motor. 

 

[76inka]

3 hours ago, ray_ said:

I think the '76 is different right? The '73 right stalk actuates the wipers by pushing in the end of the stalk.

 

But, '76 is not the same, right?

 

Cheers,

Ya, I think it is different.  I tried to push the end of the stalk and nothing is budging. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by 76inka

[Healey3000]

Good pics but hard to tell if the relay contacts are in good shape or how they are set up.  Can you press on the contact to observe the action?  That is, when the coil is energized, the magnetic field will pull down that flap like contact on the top.  I assume that when that happens, another part of the arrangement moves to close a set of contacts.  Those missing pieces may be involved.

 

I'm not sure the windings are problematic; check resistance with a meter to be sure.  Then try applying 12 volts to the coil and see if anything moves.  My guess is that the mechanical parts of the relay are misbehaving.  Nothing obvious by way of smoked components on that PCB.

[jgerock]

7 hours ago, 76inka said:

Ya, I think it is different.  I tried to push the end of the stalk and nothing is budging. 

I would remove the stalk and inspect the wires and also inspect the motor.

['76mintgrün'02]

If only you lived next door, we could plug the one from my car into yours, to know whether to dig into fixing this component.  Where are you located?  Perhaps another member (with a '76) lives close enough, that you could pay them a visit to try theirs... (longshot).  This is making me want to find a spare for my car.

 

I am pretty sure that is just a dab of 'glue' they put on, where the wire exits the winding.

The fact that you found those loose parts may be significant, but I do not see what they did.

 

Capacitors often die, due to age.  Sometimes they bulge, sometimes the leak, sometimes they still look just fine; but no longer do their job.  John76 just repaired his seatbelt light timer-deal by replacing a capacitor.  I don't know if that is your problem, but just thought I'd add the info, since I see a couple suspects in your (beautiful) photos.

 

I had my wipers suddenly stop working and it was because the little plug that takes the wires through the firewall, on the way to the motor, had come loose.  I had been fiddling with possibly removing the 'extra' relays above the brake booster and apparently bumped that connection.

[7502]

My 75 has the same component and it failed soon after purchasing the car. Opened it up and it also had that same small press fit brass piece loose in the case. Assuming the coil and contacts are good you may be able to fix it. I found a used one on Epay for a good price but kept the broken one for a project if I ever get really bored. There may be identical or similar components from other German cars that will swap just fine for that part.

[76inka]

38 minutes ago, 7502 said:

My 75 has the same component and it failed soon after purchasing the car. Opened it up and it also had that same small press fit brass piece loose in the case. Assuming the coil and contacts are good you may be able to fix it. I found a used one on Epay for a good price but kept the broken one for a project if I ever get really bored. There may be identical or similar components from other German cars that will swap just fine for that part.

awesome, so i guess a new relay will fix the problem? 

['76mintgrün'02]

isn't that our         intermitten't-switch          we're so lucky-to-have          in'our seventy-sixes?

 

[76inka]

11 hours ago, Healey3000 said:

Good pics but hard to tell if the relay contacts are in good shape or how they are set up.  Can you press on the contact to observe the action?  That is, when the coil is energized, the magnetic field will pull down that flap like contact on the top.  I assume that when that happens, another part of the arrangement moves to close a set of contacts.  Those missing pieces may be involved.

 

I'm not sure the windings are problematic; check resistance with a meter to be sure.  Then try applying 12 volts to the coil and see if anything moves.  My guess is that the mechanical parts of the relay are misbehaving.  Nothing obvious by way of smoked components on that PCB.

 

8 hours ago, jgerock said:

I would remove the stalk and inspect the wires and also inspect the motor.

 

3 hours ago, '76mintgrun'02 said:

If only you lived next door, we could plug the one from my car into yours, to know whether to dig into fixing this component.  Where are you located?  Perhaps another member (with a '76) lives close enough, that you could pay them a visit to try theirs... (longshot).  This is making me want to find a spare for my car.

 

I am pretty sure that is just a dab of 'glue' they put on, where the wire exits the winding.

The fact that you found those loose parts may be significant, but I do not see what they did.

 

Capacitors often die, due to age.  Sometimes they bulge, sometimes the leak, sometimes they still look just fine; but no longer do their job.  John76 just repaired his seatbelt light timer-deal by replacing a capacitor.  I don't know if that is your problem, but just thought I'd add the info, since I see a couple suspects in your (beautiful) photos.

 

I had my wipers suddenly stop working and it was because the little plug that takes the wires through the firewall, on the way to the motor, had come loose.  I had been fiddling with possibly removing the 'extra' relays above the brake booster and apparently bumped that connection.

Alright guys, thanks for the reply.  I just found out that I can trigger the action by pressing down the contacts.  Take a look at the video I took and let me know if a new relay will fix the problem, thanks! 

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by 76inka

[Healey3000]

Good!  Okay, now you have to just figure out why the coil does not close the contacts.

 

Based on what you have done so far, this is what I have learned:

 

The wiper motor is okay.

The intermittent circuitry in the module is okay

Coil is not pulling down the contacts when you move the stalk.

 

Therefore, either you have a bad stalk, bad wiring between stalk and module, bad coil windings or a mechanical failure of the contacts.  Given this, I would hunt it down systematically by first taking a voltmeter and seeing if voltage appears in the module connector when you move the stalk.  If not, bad stalk switch or wiring.  Check the wiring between stalk and module with an ohmmeter.

 

If above is okay, check coil resistance with ohmmeter.  If open, bad coil; replace relay.

 

If coil is fine, check mechanism of contacts.  Why is coil not pulling down the flap?  If not fixable, new relay needed.

 

Hope this helps.  The good news is that your motor is fine!

[76inka]

25 minutes ago, Healey3000 said:

Good!  Okay, now you have to just figure out why the coil does not close the contacts.

 

Based on what you have done so far, this is what I have learned:

 

The wiper motor is okay.

The intermittent circuitry in the module is okay

Coil is not pulling down the contacts when you move the stalk.

 

Therefore, either you have a bad stalk, bad wiring between stalk and module, bad coil windings or a mechanical failure of the contacts.  Given this, I would hunt it down systematically by first taking a voltmeter and seeing if voltage appears in the module connector when you move the stalk.  If not, bad stalk switch or wiring.  Check the wiring between stalk and module with an ohmmeter.

 

If above is okay, check coil resistance with ohmmeter.  If open, bad coil; replace relay.

 

If coil is fine, check mechanism of contacts.  Why is coil not pulling down the flap?  If not fixable, new relay needed.

 

Hope this helps.  The good news is that your motor is fine!

Awesome, thanks for the advice, really appreciate it.  I am going to test it out step by step, and find the root of the problem.  In the meantime I have ordered a used working relay off ebay, so we will see.