73' 2002 performance barrier

[Devian]

So this is an old car and mine is totalled. My interest in the one I have is its vin # and now I'm not sure I wont just use it for parts on another but here's my question. How far do you think an 02 can realistically be pushed in terms of HP, top speed, handling ect? I don't want to spend 20k if the car can't handle it.

[FL02]

People have put all sorts of power plants in 2002 chassis. Most are BMW 6cyl transplants or bmw m-engines. I've seen a 2002 w/ a chevy 350 which was crazy & have heard of a rover powered 8cyl 2002. The chassis is lightweight so power to weight is very good, but I'd imagine you'd have to brace the chassis with anyting pushing over 300hp, but on the 2006 Bravarian tour pics they're showing a 500HP silver 2002 so it can be done. There are all sorts of 'where there's a will there's a way' type projects on this forum.

[Jon_uk]

Just the other day I was reading an article about a guy over in Florida who has a round rear light inka 02 (the best way to have one in my mind but I am biased!). He has a 1989 M20 six cylinder block in - minor polishing and prting hass been carried out, and he has an E21 323i 5 soeed box. Oh yeah, and a massive turbo has been rammed under the hood. The car produces 270hp at the crank with 280 ld ft of torque at 6,000rpm runnin 8lb of boost. He runs 1/4 miles in 13.45@107mph. In all fairness he's does say that it can be "a bit of a handful!" but the chasis can handle it. For me the real issue with any car is the involvement in driving and the power to weight - his car is an m3 beater for sure, and looks brilliant! If you're after crazy spec go for a modern day rice rocket – if you want fun, cool looks and a real "drivers experience", you're at the right place.

[BLUNT]

Just the other day I was reading an article about a guy over in Florida who has a round rear light inka 02 (the best way to have one in my mind but I am biased!). He has a 1989 M20 six cylinder block in - minor polishing and prting hass been carried out, and he has an E21 323i 5 soeed box. Oh yeah, and a massive turbo has been rammed under the hood. The car produces 270hp at the crank with 280 ld ft of torque at 6,000rpm runnin 8lb of boost. He runs 1/4 miles in 13.45@107mph. In all fairness he's does say that it can be "a bit of a handful!" but the chasis can handle it. For me the real issue with any car is the involvement in driving and the power to weight - his car is an m3 beater for sure, and looks brilliant! If you're after crazy spec go for a modern day rice rocket – if you want fun, cool looks and a real "drivers experience", you're at the right place.

thats curtis's car. hes a member here

[m-racer]

I think there are several layers to your question. You make a 2002 go pretty fast. It's a function of money and engineering. As with any car, major modifications usually start a chain of other mods to keep up (more hp means you need better brakes, etc). If that blows your dress up, then go for it. To me (and I own an S14 powered car), doing too much to these cars takes them out of character. For every engine choice other than an M10, there is a tradeoff (s14's vibrate, sixes weigh more, etc.). If you are just looking for performance, you have better choices for 20k. E30 M3's, E36 M3's, low mileage 944 turbos, etc.. If you are smitten with 2002's perhaps there is no other real choice for you. You will figure it out. There are a lot of resources here if you get more specific about what you want to build. All I can tell you is that I don't own either of the 02's for performance reasons and they perform pretty well for what they are.

[TobyB]

the front end of the car's not exactly sparkling out of the box

(my worn- out but cambered- up stock street car can pass an S14'd car with stock suspension in just about any 2nd or 3rd gear corner)

and the rear has its own charms!

So yes- for $5k you can make a faster car that can handle, but if you want truly modern performance, buy a modern car. (I want a gen3 rx7...)

If you want a project, then the 2002's a blast!

Toby

[Devian]

OK, so let me get a little more specific. I want to give the car as much HP and top end speed withouth ruining the handling characteristics or having to mess with the frame too much. I want it to remain a 2002. What engine would you recomend, transmission, rear end? Aproximate costs would be welcome too. Just to let you know, I don't know what half the engines are that are listed on this site are.

[BLUNT]

OK, so let me get a little more specific. I want to give the car as much HP and top end speed withouth ruining the handling characteristics or having to mess with the frame too much. I want it to remain a 2002. What engine would you recomend, transmission, rear end? Aproximate costs would be welcome too. Just to let you know, I don't know what half the engines are that are listed on this site are.

if thats the case i think you may be getting a little ahead of yourself. take some time and learn about the car itself the way it was offered.it will be worth it in the long run

[Devian]

I've owned the car for 15 years. It was my first car and I'm very knowledgeable as to how the car should behave. I just want more power and better handling with the same characteristics. Basically, there is no way I'm putting a 350 small block in the car because it would handle like crap. I'm thinking of the E-30 M3 (S14?) engine for instance. I have a lot of time driving my car at high speeds on windy roads. I don't want to ruin the experience.

[BLUNT]

sorry man, i wasnt talking down to you. i guess i didnt read it thoroughly as it sounded like you were new to the car and just wanted to jam the most power you could under the hood

[Devian]

No offense taken. Just trying to fix my the thing... Its name is E.D. by the way. My friends named it. Its an acronym for Evil Death...

[Guest Anonymous]

Very interesting questions and observations, above. I'll start by quoting a good friend who does high-end kitchen remodels -- "Anything is possible, all it takes is money."

Personally, I'm partial to Bill Williams' setup -- maybe he could shoot you a picture. Tasteful, classic, and way cool. The M-powered cars are great -- Go Fast Tim just bought my favorite car -- and I still remember the first time I saw one, many years ago -- it blew me away. Then, further up the power curve, I was web surfing and caught some pictures of an '02 with a blower and a Ford 9-inch rear and Hoosier slicks, etc., for drag racing. Incredible. Indeed, I have concluded that with an 02, anything is possible -- but I think you properly focus on the "realistic." Good question.

Personally, for Otis, I've always resisted the temptation to do major swaps or modifications (not true in the trunk, of course, but that's another story), and instead, simply try to tweek some extra performance out of the original engine. Besides, I know myself well enough that if I ever were to swap out, the old street-rodding creed would take over -- "There is no substitute for cubic inches" -- and I'd be tempted to do something absolutely crazy and entirely irresponsible like this ($14k!!):

http://www.enginefactory.com/european_muscle_special.htm. But as the notorious R. Milhouse Nixon once said, "We could do that -- but it would be wrong." So, I quash those crazy dreams and simply keep the original engine, adding performance upgrades here and there (cam, dual carbs, ignition, exhaust, electric fuel pump, suspension mods, better brakes, 5-speed, hi-output alternator, strut braces, etc.). Of course, I'm always the last one down the mountain, bringing up the rear on runs with the '02 Group -- so I'll leave to others to comment on what realistically can be done to push your performance up the curve.

In that connection, my suggestion is to talk to as many folks as you can one-on-one, including all the good folks here who have done swaps and mods, plus all the "usual suspect" professional shops that do engine conversions, or sell parts for them (check the links section here, or Roundel, etc.). Also, I think that it would help to check out first hand what others have done, some place where 02s accumulate in great concentrations -- like during the big West-coast '02 gathering, or if traveling to NC is possible, next year's Vintage at the Vineyards (I get some of the best ideas, and a lot of inspiration, from the Vintage). That way, you can see what you like, and also find out what folks really think of their mods, in hindsight -- the pros and cons, dos and don'ts, and the answer to the important question, "If you had to do it all over again, would you do it again -- or something different, and why?"

All that being said, the best mods I ever did to Otis, has nothing to do with the engine itself, but instead: Dropping in the five speed, and going with monster Volvo brakes. Absolutely night and day in terms of driveability, for the "Old Fart" that I am becoming. In any event, please let everyone know what you decide to do -- and what questions you have along the way.

[Devian]

So how realistic do you guys think it is to take the car above from its presant state to top of the line looks and great performance without breaking 15k?

[BarryA]

research on possible directions to take with your modifications - there are probably more '02's (with a wider variety of modifications) on the street in Northern CA than anyplace else in the country, and almost everybody is more than willing to share their experiences with the paths that it's taken to get their cars to where they are.

There's a variety of 2002 specific events in Northern & Central CA, as well as a number that significant numbers of '02's turn out for including Bay Area '02's monthly events (all in the Bay Area), 2002 Fest West (San Luis Obispo, usually early fall), Deutsches Motorfest (30 miles east of Sacramento, late September), BimmerFest (Santa Barbara CA, April).

Attend a few events, talk to some owners, and you'll probably get more ideas and feedback than you know what to do with.....

[Guest Anonymous]

Devian, how much rust do you have? I think that is your number one determinant -- unless others disagree. Other opinions? Let me give you an example. My plan was to upgrade the brakes and suspension. We jacked up the car, and found out the subframe was rusted and cracked. So much for that budget.

Your second major determinant, is how much of the work you are going to do yourself. Economists would debate me on this -- they'd note the "opportunity cost" of the DIY work. But realistically, there is no opportunity cost in me working on my 02 instead of spending my nights and weekends watching "Pimp My Ride" reruns. The more you can do yourself, the less cash that comes out of your pocket.

Last, in terms of cosmetics, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a "patina" car. So in my humble opinion, your first dollars should go to the mechanical, not the cosmetics. I have a '53 Dodge truck that I rescued from a field in Southern Maryland. I spent two years getting the beast to start, stop, and steer -- and getting the old flathead motor to purr (well, roar, actually). I also spent $4 on a can of Rustoleum primer. Some tell me that the old beast looks "cool" and "retro" in its black-primer suit -- sort of a "Rat Rod" version, which is all the rage right now with the street rod crowd. But, my wife disagrees (and finds the appearance "Douglas" offensive), so I'm starting in (reluctantly) on the body work. But, in its present condition, I still get stopped in parking lots with comments like, "Man, that's a cool truck --I wish I had a real truck like that -- you can actually drive it and not be afraid to use it."

Granted, an 02 is not an old truck (far from it), and there are a ton of great looking 02s in your area. But, something about a patina car is just plain cool. Scott even gives out an award at the Vintage, for the car with the most patina. In short, patina -- good.

So, if it were me, I'd concentrate on the mechanics, and forget about the body for a bit. Except for rust, of course, which you can temporarily halt with a liberal smathering of POR 15. That way, you can spend your $15K on making the car go fast and straight down the highway. To quote a good friend -- Brad in Charlottesville -- "My car's a rust bucket -- and I'm proud of it." Brad also blows my doors off, going down the highway. So, mechanics first. But that's just my opinion.