Distributor curves/timing for '76 Automatic CA - 123ignition

[jimk]

1 hour ago, awesomade said:

So why spend almost 500 bucks for something I do not necessarily need

So you really didn't know you didn't have a 123?  You said so in the first post!

[02sahara]

8 hours ago, jimk said:

So you really didn't know you didn't have a 123?  You said so in the first post!

What? I already spent the money on the 123 as this was the initial plan, but I can send it back if I decide until the end of the week and get the money back. Or what do you mean?

[02sahara]

Gotta correct myself as I did another timing light test, this time without vacuum applied (sorry for that), to make sure it's not because of the vacuum. Did it right after start when engine still fairly cold and idling.

 

Result: Timing marks still jumping a bit but not that much as yesterday with engine at operating temperature and vac still attached. Now with "just" 1 cm (0.4 inch).

 

I assume that still indicates a worn dizzy, right? I mean, I can move the shaft a little bit left and right and even further up and down, so actually no confirmation needed, does it?

[jimk]

2 hours ago, awesomade said:

Result: Timing marks still jumping a bit but not that much as yesterday with engine at operating temperature and vac still attached. Now with "just" 1 cm (0.4 inch).

I hear the 123 gets rid of the spark jitters.

[Hans]

2 hours ago, awesomade said:

Gotta correct myself as I did another timing light test, this time without vacuum applied (sorry for that), to make sure it's not because of the vacuum. Did it right after start when engine still fairly cold and idling.

 

Result: Timing marks still jumping a bit but not that much as yesterday with engine at operating temperature and vac still attached. Now with "just" 1 cm (0.4 inch).

 

I assume that still indicates a worn dizzy, right? I mean, I can move the shaft a little bit left and right and even further up and down, so actually no confirmation needed, does it?

Perhaps that, but maybe idle mixture adjustment would smooth it out, or valve adjustment. Do the revs rise and fall when it does that? Does it smooth out when revs are raised?

 

If you had  unearthed Uncle Karl's long lost ti, I'd put the 123 in there for sure. But, with all respect, you have an automatic. My sense was that you wanted to get the car running and learn how to tinker later. Now it runs. How does it drive? Can you go for a drive in the Eifel?

If you need a new distributor, $500US is a lot for one part. It is not going to transform your car into a tii.   There may be other options.  Especially in Germany. Maybe look for a better used one.

I've had some success putting a Pertronix in older distributors, since it seems to buffer out some of the wobble. $125US.

What is you idst number again? I may have one.

try putting a few drops of oil on the pad under the rotor. By left and right, do you mean in circles or from side to side (6 oclock to 12 oclock across).

Run a bottle of fuel injection cleaner in the gas tank.

i would get the valves adjusted. Get some stepped go/no go feeler guages. Or pay some one who kmows old bmws. Under an hour's work.

Other things to do with $500: how old are the tires? Mfg date should be marked on sidewall. If no service records, change ALL fluids. maybe change all rubber brake hoses when you do brake fluid. get car up on rack and check for leaks. Check steering linkage, tie rod ends, etc. Carb rebuild kit or consider swap to Weber.

[Hans]

So I'd be inclined to send it back. De[ends on whether your budget allows for it sitting on the shelf just in case.

[Hans]

On 3/30/2022 at 9:49 AM, jimk said:

Hard to understand why there are 4 pages of beating the old distributor setup to death when it's a dead horse anyway.  OP says he has a 123 distr, put it in and step into the new equipment.

1. install the 123 and follow the 123 instructions.

2. If you have the 3 degrees mark on the front wheel use it.  If not use the TDC mark.

3. Put a flat curve in the 123, all 3 degrees or 0 degrees depending on step 2. above. No tachometer needed.

4 Use the timing light and synchronize the 123 to your engine at any rpm, timing will be the same at any rpm in the flat curve.

5. Install the recommended timing curve in the 123.

6. Setup the economy advance (vacuum advance) by whichever method you select, i.e. port vacuum or manifold vacuum.

7. Throw the points distributor in the neighbor's pool.

My sense was that OP was more interested in getting the new toy running than learning how to program 123. Which it now does. Plus, it's an automatic.

Thanks for DIY info.

['76mintgrün'02]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:52 PM, awesomade said:

probably send the 123 dizzy back and save the money for something else.

 

If I was spending your money, I'd buy this timing light.  It has a built in tachometer, dwellometer, voltometer and variable advance strobe light.

    Innova 5568 

 

 

The variable advance feature/tachometer will allow you to plot the advance curve for your #164 distributor and set the timing accordingly.  The dwell meter is the only way to accurately set/monitor the points' gap.

 

If the center post cam is worn from the points' rubbing block, the Pertronix setup is a good work-around.  It also eliminates the need to maintain the dwell (which affects the timing as it changes) and you no longer need a condenser (which have had some quality control issues in recent years).  Timing light + Pertronix = 1/2 the cost of the 123... but your distributor might be "worn out".

 

The axial (up and down) play in the shaft is measured by removing the distributor and using feeler gauges between the gear and distributor body.  If it is up over .035", you are missing at least one of the two fiber washers.  They are available from vintage VW vendors, since their Bosch distributors use the same washers.  https://www.vwnos.com/hardware 

 

My 49-state (non-CA) '76 originally came with the 164 distributor.  It was worn and was giving too much advance (which is typical).  I started a thread in which I explored different ways to tweak the advance curve.  It has a lot of photos, which may be helpful if you are going to be taking yours apart. 

 

 

 

Tom

[02sahara]

1 hour ago, Hans said:

Perhaps that, but maybe idle mixture adjustment would smooth it out, or valve adjustment. Do the revs rise and fall when it does that? Does it smooth out when revs are raised?

No, revs don't change. And no, it doesn't smooth out.

 

Quote

I've had some success putting a Pertronix in older distributors, since it seems to buffer out some of the wobble. $125US.

What is you idst number again? I may have one.

dizzy number? 0 231 170 164 (JFU 4)

 

Quote

try putting a few drops of oil on the pad under the rotor. By left and right, do you mean in circles or from side to side (6 oclock to 12 oclock across).

yeah, already did that (before the test runs).

Left and right wiggle I mean side to side, yes. (Not spinning.)

 

Quote

Run a bottle of fuel injection cleaner in the gas tank.

i would get the valves adjusted. Get some stepped go/no go feeler guages. Or pay some one who kmows old bmws. Under an hour's work.

Yep already have one, will put the cleaner in, now that I will drive the car more regularly.

And yeah valve adjustment, is next and definitely before carb adjustment. Had a look and last valve adjustment was done 12.000 miles ago. so pretty much on point of service interval.

 

Quote

Other things to do with $500: how old are the tires? Mfg date should be marked on sidewall. If no service records, change ALL fluids. maybe change all rubber brake hoses when you do brake fluid. get car up on rack and check for leaks. Check steering linkage, tie rod ends, etc. Carb rebuild kit or consider swap to Weber.

Service history is very good and was done by a repair shop on a regular basis. Last time in September. Tires are new. (Just the front left is losing pressure over tim; more than normal.)

[02sahara]

1 hour ago, Hans said:

 Plus, it's an automatic.

Can you elaborate on that?

[jimk]

4 hours ago, Hans said:

My sense was that OP was more interested in getting the new toy running than learning how to program 123

If one can post on this board, then that person is qualified to program a 123.

[Hans]

3 hours ago, awesomade said:

Can you elaborate on that?

Even when new, it was not a rocket. The transmissison tends to keep the engine at lower rpms unless you shift it manually or boot it a lot. Also the torque converter tends to buffer out some engine irregularities.

[02sahara]

Alright guys, I installed the 123 distributor last week including proper coil, eliminating resistor wire, setting timings and so.

 

Now I tried to give it a test drive ... But unfortunately it did not start:

 

Starter is trying to turn the engine but for me (inexperienced person) it feels like it has a hard time and not enough power to give engine just some good turns. (Again: My personal feeling)

 

How do I need to proceed? 

- Now that the battery is lowy I need to charge them again, sure.

 

- ignition system should all be good to go and I am 100% sure I did everything right. Anything I can check there?

 

- Could the starter have caused the starting problems all the time? But then, why would it start way better (not perfectly) when warm or ran within the last hour, I am thinking. Could it even be the starter then?

 

- Oh yeah, auto choke is working – so at least it's plate gets closed when pushing the pedal to the metal. I think that's it, right? (It's not 100% snug closed against the carb, but looks like as closed it can get without pushing it down by hand.)

 

- Btw: Valves are adjusted as well. 

 

So yeah, I really appreciate your help again ? thanks in advance

Marvin

[Hans]

get battery fully charged. Make sure  battery connections are clean. Pull #1 plug and see if it sparks when grounded and turning over. Do you have Quick Start spray where you are?

You need spark and fuel to start.

Car ran, you change dizzy, car doesnt run. That should guide you investigation. That's exactly why I suggested you get car running first.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Hans

[John76]

Sounds like you have way too much advance. Engine is fighting itself against the starter.

Check the numerous posts about the initial TDC setting needed for the 123 dizzy.

Your starter motor may have a bad rear (plastic) bushing.

Your low mileage '76 may be OK....but this is a common "slow crank with good battery" problem with the old Bosch starters.