No start w/ Fuel and spark?

[landon]

Early spring weather here prompted me to take the 02 to work yesterday but she would not start. I last started it 3 weeks ago and it fired normally and ran nice and smooth. Nothing was touched but I will note that I killed 3 mice under the car in that period after noticing some droppings on the tops of the fenders and on the dashboard. After that was cleaned up I have seen no other signs of them getting in the car.

 

I checked the following;

 

1. Starter is cranking strong. Battery is good showing 12.5 volts.

2. The 38 DGAS shows a nice strong jet of fuel from the pump diaphragm.

3. I get a spark from the #1 plug HT lead and from the coil HT lead. Spark was blue - orange. 

4. With ignition on - I checked voltage from coil + to ground and saw no reading. ???? should see 12V there correct? But the coil is sparking......    Bosch red coil is 20 years old. No external ballast resistor.

5. Followed the green wire from coil to ignition switch and it looked good. Checked connection at switch and it looked good. I saw no signs of damage to wiring under the hood or under the dash. 

6. checked cap and rotor and all looked good. No out of place arcing. These were replaced this summer. Pertronix wiring looked fine and was sitting nice and tight. This one is  about 13 years old.

 

So what next?  Weak spark? bad fuel? Another wire I should check for damage? I thought i would pull a plug tonight and see what they look like. They were replaced this summer as well.

 

Thanks for any tips.  

[zinz]

Did you flood it?

 

Was the plug wet when you pulled it?

 

Ed

[landon]

5 minutes ago, zinz said:

Did you flood it?

 

Was the plug wet when you pulled it?

 

Ed

Maybe. I am going to try again tonight and pull a plug if the result is the same. Starting is very consistent with this car and I used the same procedure. Pull the choke and One pump of the gas. After a few tries I did a flooded start procedure too and it would not go. It does sound like it wants to catch and fire but does not. The manual choke is engaging fine. 

[Healey3000]

As to not seeing 12 volts across the coil, it may be that there's a bad contact at the fuse box.  Not enough current flows to allow for a proper spark.  I had such an issue when a spade connector went bad, causing poor contact.  It would run but not idle.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Healey3000

[landon]

43 minutes ago, Healey3000 said:

As to not seeing 12 volts across the coil, it may be that there's a bad contact at the fuse box.  Not enough current flows to allow for a proper spark.  I had such an issue when a spade connector went bad, causing poor contact.  It would run but not idle.

You just jogged my memory. After seeing signs of the mouse I pulled up the fuse box to see if they were nesting in there. I did not see anything so I just put it back but maybe something got loose.....   

[zinz]

yep... The OEM fuse box spades are pretty tight, but double check every connection. I had a friend checking out the CS a month ago and he spotted the spade at the + lead on the coil was not entirely tight... I crimped it more tightly and found that it cured a very slight stumble it had been experiencing.  ...it's always something, right ?

 

Ed

[jmiller]

Maybe a problem with the coil relay circuit?  There is a relay that sends full voltage to the coil during cranking, but switches to the ballast resistor circuit during normal run.  When you saw spark in the HT lead it was while cranking, yes?  Try checking the terminals on the relay.  Or send power directly to the coil to test.

 

Jeff

[landon]

1 hour ago, jmiller said:

Maybe a problem with the coil relay circuit?  There is a relay that sends full voltage to the coil during cranking, but switches to the ballast resistor circuit during normal run.  When you saw spark in the HT lead it was while cranking, yes?  Try checking the terminals on the relay.  Or send power directly to the coil to test.

 

Jeff

Yes, spark was seen during cranking. This sounds familiar that the voltage is different during cranking. It is a 1975 so I think they have the resistor wire. I used to run a ballast resistor with the red coil when I had points but removed it after the pertronix install ( 13 years ago??). Where would this coil relay be located?  

[jmiller]

Um, not sure about the 1975; should be on the firewall.  Follow the wire from the coil.

Also, I'm surprised you got away with the red coil and Pertronix.  Read this for a good explanation:

Ignition Coil Myths Busted 

 

[Stevenc22]

A red coil is supposed to have a ballast resistor especially with a petronix.

[Stevenc22]

A red coil is supposed to have a ballast resistor especially with a petronix. I once had a no start problem related to a poorly set overly tight choke 

[landon]

13 hours ago, jmiller said:

Um, not sure about the 1975; should be on the firewall.  Follow the wire from the coil.

Also, I'm surprised you got away with the red coil and Pertronix.  Read this for a good explanation:

Ignition Coil Myths Busted 

 

OK - pulled the fuse the box and found a wire was disconnected at fuse #12. This should be the problem. I have not tried to start it yet as I want to re-work the spade connector before re-attaching. This wire was black and came out of the blue sheathing leading back to the coil. I do not have a "clear" resistor wire connected at the coil so I am thinking this wire was replaced. Looking at the wiring diagram I think this the wire that provides the voltage to the coil after the starter is out of the loop. Makes sense causing the no start condition.

 

My Red coil connected directly to Pertronix wiring without an external ballast resistor has worked without issue for 13 + years.

 

Prior to the pertronix install my engine builder setup the red coil with an external ballast resistor. I assume this was 1.8 ohms as noted on the coil and that is why the 0.9 ohm ballast wire would have been removed. Correct?  

 

   

[zinz]

 

 

Hope that reattaching that wire solves your problem!

 

Interesting... the Manila car has a red coil with an external ballast.  I've used it with Ireland's dizzy and their electronic ignitor. I then used it with a HotSpark ignitor with no problems.  I now run a 123Ignition dizzy with no problems.

 

Ed

[Chris_B]

You said you were getting spark. It may just be that you soaked your plugs by injudicious use of the throttle when you were attempting start. You may want to pull the rest of your plugs, dry them off (butane torch works well) and try again.

[rstclark]

If it were me I would just abandoned any old emissions wiring and run a new  non resister wire from the #12 fuse to the + side of a brand new Blue coil to know I had solid spark.. If that didn't work, then proceed down the line of a full electric tune up to be sure you have good  --  really good spark.

After that then it's a fuel or flooding issue

+1 on the previous recommendation of a  123 tune distributor.  it's a bit pricy but well worth the results