engine and drivetrain Need some help identifying a 2002

[John Southerland]

Hopefully, this is in the correct thread. 

I have a BMW E10, that is titled as a 1969, and from a cursory examination looks to be a 69, but the more I begin to dig into this car and look for parts to restore her, I am beginning to see signs that she isn't what she seems.

I purchased the car a little while ago from a friend who needed to move to another project. It needed new paint so I immediately put it into my regular paint shop. This is my first 2002, so I'm not as familiar with it as other series, I do have an E36, and restore Vespas of around the same era. So I'm not totally ignorant of modifications like this.

 

I can't seem to place everything, but now that I am doing research I can't figure out if the PO (in this case PO->PO) replaced the four speed with a five, or if it is the newer engine and frame as well.

 

1. Trunk holes for different side marker lights:

 

2. Dash does not seem to be 1969, with it's friendly little "Fasten Seatbelt" sign:

 

 

3. Notice also the seats are obviously Recaro and not the stubby little 69 seats. Though it is hard to know the upgrade from the stock on a car so well aged. These seats don't even have an adapter, they are connected directly, and the shelf seems totally different from any pictures I've been able to find for reference. 

 

4. The exterior lower moulding does not seem to be standard for this year either. 

 

The body vin stamp was re-stamped in 1995 it seems, so I dare not go by that (Which is what places it at 1969 by title)

 

I just want to restore the interior now and either the previous owner took a 1969 2002 and update everything to something newer or more likely made some minor exterior modifications and went the other direction. I don't care either way. I just want to make sure I am getting the right cut of carpet and other major things for the restoration.

 

If this is the wrong thread, please excuse the interruption, otherwise if you can educate me on this I am all ears/eyes. I can also share more pictures if another indicator isn't captured.

Thanks, John

 

[Edit: Picture rotation edit]

Edited January 25, 2015 by JohnSouth

[stone02]

Hi, 

 i have thirty years of ownership and service on 2002's.

your car has many signs of being a 1969 0r 1970.

the trunk has the teltale signs of an early 02. the long

rubber neck for the gas tank ended mid to late 1970. 

the tail lights with red center ended early 1970, depending

on automatic or manual trans. the dash is a later model

replaced, probably 1973. the fuses are probably 6 total

and that was until 1973. pictures of wiring in the engine 

area would also date the car. the holes in the rear quarter

are for regular sidemarkers installed for US. on the 

tail light houseing a blue date stamp my be visible to look

at. i also see early gauges, heater controls, very early

turn signal switch. the lower trim is missing. the seat 

tracks have been cut out of the car and e30 seats installed.

lets see what the others say. also how about a vin

for us to research.

good luck

stone

Edited January 25, 2015 by stone02

[saaron]

Hi there.

 

I am not the biggest expert on this board, but I know some stuff that might help.   There were basically 3 eras of 02s, 68-71, 72&73, and 74-76, in terms of the trim, lighting, bumpers, stuff like that.  There were many other evolutionary changes to the running gear.  

 

VERY few 02s came with a 5 speed (there were optional 5 speeds but very rare), so that was added later.  It's a popular upgrade.

 

Same for the Recaro seats - popular update that a lot of people do.  Those aren't stock.  

 

In order to figure out the year, it's really down to the vin.  Between motor, grilles, bumpers, instrument clusters, a lot of the things that identify the year can be changed because they are pretty interchangeable, and cars this old have usually experienced some of that along the way.  The markers of what year it is could be long gone.  

 

There is a stamp on the block above the starter that has the engine # stamped on it.  The number should match the vin plate on the driver's sdie fender, and the number is stamped on the chassis on the other side of the engine compartment near where the fender and front unibody meet.  So those are your numbers to look at to decipher if the engine is original.  There is a vin number on the black pad in front of the steering wheel, I believe, too.  

 

I believe the dash is later than '69.  I don't think that seatbelt piece came in until later.  The instruments cluter your car has is from a pre '72.  You also have a clock, which came only on ti and tii models.  

 

The rear bumper is from a '72 or '73.  The earlier bumpers don't go all the way to the rear fenders (hence their name "shorty" bumpers).  That could have easily been replaced.  

 

From the pics, it looks like you do have one piece of unique early car trim - the horizontal piece between the rear tailights.  It looks like yours has blacked out segments, which I think only came on really early cars, and maybe only on 1600s.  Someone may clarify that.  Of course someone could have painted that along the way because they liked that look.  

 

So figure out the year from the vin.  If you post the vin we can tell you what year it is.  

 

It for sure looks like a collection of different parts is going on.  Someone modded it along the way.

 

Scott

[John Southerland]

Stone,

Thanks for that info, being new, I am not sure of anything here. I can already tell this is going to be a fun thread. You were right about the fuse box:

 

Vin is nicely stamped on the right side of the engine bay: 1666271 (that makes three places so far, I trust it now)

 

 

Can you help me identify this engine? I know it has a five speed, not sure about much else, everything seems to be updated. I may want to help it get some cooler air to the carb though.

Thanks, John

 

[Conserv]

Let's start with the places the VIN should appear:

1.) stamped directly into the outer edge of the inner fender on the right side of the engine compartment is the original -- and most tamper-resistant -- VIN

2.) a riveted-on VIN plate should be fastened to the right-side inner fender just aft of the right shock tower mount -- is this the one that was re-stamped on your car?

3.) on top of the steering column, just fore of the steering wheel, is a small VIN plate stamped with the VIN

4.) I'm not certain when the silver paper label with printed VIN appeared on the trailing edge of the left door but I believe Mike's pointed out it was not yet used in '69 -- assuming your door is a '69 or earlier

5.) the VIN also was the number for the factory engine. There is a flat machined boss just aft of the starter motor, on top of the block, facing upward. The engine's number and, generally, displacement -- e.g., "2.0" -- appear here.

Perhaps you can look at these areas and tell us if there is any evidence of past or present VINs.

Regards,

Steve

Edited January 27, 2015 by Conserv

[saaron]

The Macartney book would say your vin is a US '69.

 

To my eye it looks like an M10 engine...they all look similar on the outside, and the M10 is the only motor the 02 used.  What year it is, and what is inside...who knows.  If there is a number stamped on it, you could at least get the year (assuming it is different than the car's vin).

 

You can put a 5 speed in any year 02...so they didn't HAVE to swap out the motor to put in the 5 speed, FYI.

 

Scott

[Conserv]

I'm not sure what "restamped in 1995" means in your original post: both right-fender VINs (chassis and VIN plate) look un-touched to me. That does leave open the possibility that someone transferred engine, trans, etc. from another car but your engine number examination will tell you that. If your car is missing the small VIN tag on top of the steering column, perhaps the interior was transferred from another car. So check for that VIN tag as well.

I owned 1668093, which was manufactured September 8, 1969. This made it an extremely early 1970 model.

If I were in your position, I would next send your VIN in an email to BMW Archives: info.grouparchiv@bmwgroup.com. Ask for all available information for your car.

Within a day or so, at no cost, you will find out (a.) the manufacturing date, (b.) the date on which legal title transferred to Hoffman Motors (a New York corporation), (c.) confirmation of the "market" (U.S. or European), (d.) confirmation of the model (1600, 2002, etc.), and (e.) the factory body color.

Good luck,

Steve

[John Southerland]

Thank you all for the help. I feel more confident now than I did before with this initial VIN stamp I had found. I failed to upload this before, sorry: 

[Conserv]

n.t.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Conserv

[jgerock]

Your car is two away from my 69! I have 1666269 made on 5/30/69 and was originally delivered to CA.

Your car should have the front and rear side markers.

The DOT has provided a new VIN tag that was applied to the driver's door jamb. I had to get one for my VW Beetle since the body and floor pan VIN's didn't match.

Edited January 26, 2015 by jgerock

[Conserv]

John,

Based on the oldest paint I see running under the inner fender VIN plate, this might have originally been a Nevada car -- the color, not the state. The front door cards, Tobacco (or is that Saddle?), would be consistent with that.

In terms of determining what is original, as Scott said, there are stylistic clues that help one date various components. But there are also lots of dated items on 2002s: heads, transmissions, differential housings, differential rear covers, radiators, rims (got a 13" steel spare tire rim?), instrument clusters, tail lights. As you discover these dates over time, you'll get a better picture of the original 1666271. But you'll also find that a lot of things change over the course of 46 years!

Enjoy!

Regards,

Steve

Edited January 30, 2015 by Conserv

[John Southerland]

I just got an email back from info.grouparchive@bmwgroup.com, and it turns out my 1969 BMW 2002 is actually a 1970 1602:

 

The VIN 2666271 belongs to a BMW 1600 (or 1600-2 as it was known later) manufactured on December 11th, 1970 and delivered on December 16th, 1970 to Yugoslavia. The original colour was Chamonix, paint code 085.

 

That seems strange given the documented date and classification of the VIN by range, has that archiver ever been wrong?

Though that may explain some of the odd bits when I'm trying to compare this car to others, again 46 years does a lot to a girl.

[Conserv]

I just got an email back from info.grouparchive@bmwgroup.com, and it turns out my 1969 BMW 2002 is actually a 1970 1602:

 

The VIN 2666271 belongs to a BMW 1600 (or 1600-2 as it was known later) manufactured on December 11th, 1970 and delivered on December 16th, 1970 to Yugoslavia. The original colour was Chamonix, paint code 085.

 

That seems strange given the documented date and classification of the VIN by range, has that archiver ever been wrong?

Though that may explain some of the odd bits when I'm trying to compare this car to others, again 46 years does a lot to a girl.

John,

Your car's VIN is 1666271; the Archive's reply says their information is for VIN 2666271. Oops!

Steve

[John Southerland]

LOL, back I send this!

[John_in_VA]

I'd assume the archive just made a typo on the first digit. My first '02, 1673695, was a 1970.

Your car originally had bumpers like this car:

Edited January 26, 2015 by John_in_VA