engine and drivetrain Found a Nice 2002 Tii, Need some help Verifiying it.

[Peter314]

Hello everyone this is my first post here on BMW 2002 FAQ

I come to you asking for your help on a potential purchase of a 1972 BMW 2002 Tii.

What I've found seems to be a well put together car but a bit of a Frankenstein. It's been resprayed about two times, but I've been assured it's not a rust bucket or been in any accidents, it's been through a few sets of hands that decided they wanted to change it up from time to time. The owner of the shop is a nice guy so I trust that he is not lying.

Exterior-

The car is currently Diamond Black with a custom body kit, I forget the name of it but he told me you cant get it anymore. it's got flared wheel arches and they have been seamlessly integrated into the body, wider wheels and lowered suspension and a custom wing.

Interior-

The Front seats are black sport seats out of I believe a 325, not 100% sure, but they are not original. nor is the center console or steering wheel

, it was done for a customer but they backed out so it can be changed back. the door cards and rear seat is blue with a white headliner. A stereo was installed but taken out, thus the holes in the doors and missing head unit.

Mechanical-

The engine is supposedly a new crate engine that they put in a few years ago, it has about 20k miles on it. also the car has a 5 speed transmission, supposedly an Alpina.

The car is in good shape, I went through it yesterday and spent alot of time looking for things out of place. Now it is not 100% perfect but its somewhere to start. the interior could use some re-conditioning and some touching up, the exterior is great with the exception for two small cracks where they joined the body kit to the body. paint is great. abit a little dusty, the car has been sitting sense at least September of 2009. Owner said he had the car out and driving last year before putting it away. He's owned it for about 10 years he's said and his son did all of the body cosmetics that the car currently has.

Now because this car has been changed around so much I am having a little bit of trouble determining and proving that this is a true Tii, the VIN says so, the fender marking matches and the number plate on the top of the steering column matches. BUT the VIN and the fender look a little sketchy. I've taken a bunch of pictures and I'll supply you with the link or post some on here later but If anyone could check them out and or maybe submit what certain parts are supposed to look like for reference would be great. Specifically a 1972 VIN tag and fender marking.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I do like this car, but I need to make sure I'm not paying money for a "Tii" that's actually just a modded 2002.

http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/mymurcielago/1972%20BMW%202002%20Tii/

Thanks

-Peter

Edit/Delete Message

[jgerry2002]

Your link goes to photobucket directly, you can resize your images and post here.

Post the VIN number too, or you can look up the ranges for tii's, you can also email BMW MT (or whatever they are called these days) to get an original color and delivery date.

Also, Alpina never made transmissions. Its either a Getrag 245 out of a 320i or if its a dogleg (5th gear is down), then it could be a close-ratio, either an original 2002 Getrag 235 or possibly a later box out of a E21.

As highly modified as you discuss, typically means a much lower street value, unless you are looking for those specific options.

VIN is located on the top of the passenger side firewall, the metal plate (if it is still there) and the pad between the steering wheel and gauge cluster.

The biggest thing is to look UNDER the car, to figure out how much rust you are dealing with.

[Richard]

Where did the car grow up??? I didnt see any mention of you using a magnet. Good luck

[Peter314]

Fixed the link to the album, will post on here soon.

I know the range of VINs for 1972 Tii and where it's located, If someone could post a picture of there vin tag and fender marking so that I can compare the two would help, I want to make sure it wasnt faked on and stamped by them.

This car's VIN is 2760691.

See this is helping already, The trans is a 5 speed dogleg close ratio, not sure what it's out of though.

The car is modified pretty significantly but the engine is stock, I don't mind though, I rather like the look, BUT your right, value has been degraded with all of it. I believe they are taking the "this is our price because I want to make my money back that I spent on the car" route. I really only want to spend about $8,000

I will email motoring traditions for some info on the car soon.

I will have to investigate the car's underside for rust although with the amount of work and the paint job it had I don't believe there is much if any.

thanks so far.

[Peter314]

that's a good idea, I'm in the New England area. And the car has been around here for awhile, I'm not sure where it's from originally. I do not believe the car was driven in unfavorable weather though.

[Lars]

You have a password on the photobucket page.

[Peter314]

[Richard]

I would guess its not an original Tii. Flaky body vin.you can see where the vin tag had the pop riveter distort the paint. Clock panel looks like rtv to attach. But on the good side it appears to be a nicely modified 2002. If you are serious I would have paint remover applied to the body stamp. Seen it a dozen times....And the asking price is ??????

[SteveJ]

The dash is from a later 02. The vent controls have the lighted signs- that wasn't on a 72. All that means is the dash may have been replaced.

The nose has a snorkle- all that means is that the nose may have been replaced.

Are the rear trailing arms boxed in? All that may mean is that they may have been replaced.

Check the number stamped on the block- just curious to see if the number is even close to the one on the VIN plate.

The VIN plate rivet looks too clean, however they may have just removed the VIN plate during the repaint. I agree, the stamped number on the fender looks questionable. Run your fingers on the underside where this number is stamped to make sure the original number wasn't hammered down and then filled in and restamped. What about the number on top of the steering console?

Look at the welds for the air cleaner supports. You should be able to tell if those are original. Also, look under the trunkboard for the fuel tank. Even if the tank was replaced, there should still be a hole that the fuel return line fed through. Those are tii specific items that are not usually faked.

[Peter314]

I would guess its not an original Tii. Flaky body vin.you can see where the vin tag had the pop riveter distort the paint. Clock panel looks like rtv to attach. But on the good side it appears to be a nicely modified 2002. If you are serious I would have paint remover applied to the body stamp. Seen it a dozen times....And the asking price is ??????

this is what I was afraid of. I had a feeling that the VIN and the fender marking were a little sketchy... this and the clock wasn't secured very well.

why apply paint remover to the body stamp though?

do you have a picture of your VIN tag and body stamp that I could view for reference?

honestly I don't want to pay anymore than $8000 I feel that this is a fair price for this car. He on the other hand wants "like" $11,500. BUT numbers haven't been figured out yet. and there isn't exactly a price on the car in the first place.

[Richard]

The paint remover(aircraft type) would remove bondo that is covering the correct vin. I would suspect a wrecked Tii was transported to this car. You mention $8,000. If it all checks out. Motor strong trannystrong etc. It would appear to be the top dollar of what this car is worth.Just remember there are fake Tii's everywhere. Alot of the fakes sell on ebay from flippers that don't care who they screw.

[BarryA]

ways it could have been done:

a) strip the paint from the area, weld over the original numbers, grind the area smooth, and restamp numbers matching the aluminum vin plate (you'd probably find heat distortion in the area from the welding if this was done);

hammer or file the number area flat, smooth it off, restamp the vin (area immediately around the number should be thinner than the surrounding metal);

c) cut out the section of the top surface where the vin is stamped, and weld in a section with an original vin stamping that matches the aluminum vin plates, and grind the welds smooth (should be some distortion of the surrounding metal, and evidence of welding in the metal if the paint is stripped where the welds were made

d) replace the entire right inner fender including the vin stamping (lots of work, but very difficult to detect if the work was done to a high standard).

When '02s were manufactured, the vin was not painted over - the original vin stamping was done into the primered surface of the bare shell, masked off when the shell was painted, then covered with a thin layer of clear. If you can get a car with an original vin stamping next to this one, you should be able to tell if the size, shape, location and spacing of the numbers in this car appear to be correct - if so, you've at least largely eliminated options a & b above.

Bear in mind that if the vin HAS been changed on this car, it opens up all sorts of potential legal issues and liabilities down the road, especially if it should turn out that the body shell was ever stolen in the past - if the state could make that case, at the very least you'd lose your investment in the car (at worst you could be on the hook for receiving stolen property).

[FunkyLaneO]

Honestly, because of the extensive modifications it wouldn't really matter if it was an original tii or a copy, if all the suspension bits and the motor from a tii are there the value would be about the same.

[Peter314]

I'm going to have to go back today and check some things out, He' has some other BMW 2002 laying around, I'll have a look at those for comparison.

I'm beginning to think that this is more of a hack job than anything, although I still rather like the car, the body kit gives it a very smooth like E30 look to it and I think it looks good. It would be great if it was a real Tii to boot but I'm starting to have doubts.

The first thing that stood out to me was the crooked stamping on the VIN followed by the crooked stamping on the body. The number on the steering column matches though, but its not that hard to do either.

So things to check today

- Boxed rear suspension. (does anyone have a picture?)

- VIN stampings in comparison with other 2002/2002 Tii

- Two pot brake calipers (Pictures?)

- Rust on underside of car

- various bits under trunk floor, forgot to yesterday.

- welds on air intake supports

- radiator supports for warm up hose. (indicating replaced front end)

Anything else I should look for that stands out?

where is the Brake master cylinder located in the engine bay? I want to measure that.

Also it turns out my uncle knows the owner pretty well, he brings my cousins car to him to be fixed, and apparently they bowl together, so he's going to see if he can get him down in price, to the $7000 to 8000 range.

[Anschauer]

Boy are you ever going to get a flood of emails on this.

1. At some price (i'm thinking less than $4k) if it passes inspection and you don't intend to ever have to prove it's true provenance it looks like a snappy driver.

2. The stamped VIN is sketchy all right - contact BMW to get a next-day reply from them like this one that came to me:

Dear Mr B******,

Thank you for your email.

The BMW 2002 tii US VIN 2762570 was manufactured on August 10th, 1972 and delivered on August 16th, 1972 to the BMW importer Hoffman Motors Corp. in New York City. The original colour was Sahara, paint code 006.

We hope this information is helpful for you.

Yours sincerely,

Andreas Harz

-----------------------------------------

Available at BMW Group Classic

Phone: +49 89 382 68281

Fax: +49 89 382 24765

mailto: andreas.harz@partner.bmwgroup.com

URL: http://www.bmw-grouparchives.com

3) The nose was either replaced or (what I'd suspect) they "cloned" a tii. When you get the answer from BMW you will get the paint code. Check carefully by maybe pulling up the carpet someplace or peeling off the handbrake boot and see what color it originally was and if the 2 don't match then voila there you are.

4) The VIN number appears in 3 places: The front body support , the cover over the steering column (easily switched) and the engine, stamped on the flywheel housing where you can see it. No match = clone

5) Check the rear suspension. It should be a boxed (enclosed) suspension and not the 'C' -type beam used on non-tii's.

6) Maybe the nose was hit good and they grafted another nose onto a tii?

Again, could be a nice runner and all but be careful not to overpay.