Oil Filter Choice??

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a remote oil filter assembly for GF's car that takes a large universal PF-1 filter. GF's father offered a case of either Fram or STP filters.

I know you folks are going to recommend Mahle or maybe purolator or even Mobil 1 (assuming they make one for the 02) BUT since these larger Filters are for American cars (Ford/Chrysler) and because the Dad has a favor owed, I am obliged to pick Fram or STP.

So, all things considered, between the 2 brands I named, which has the better filter medium? Which would you choose?

Thanks and happy new year to all.

[KFunk]

STP. Avoid Fram at all costs. Do a little searching on it, and you'll find out Fram filters are extremely crappy, have sloppy quality control, etc.

[Supergeek]

STP. Avoid Fram at all costs. Do a little searching on it, and you'll find out Fram filters are extremely crappy, have sloppy quality control, etc.

Hmmm.........My Dad has used Fram for as long as I know. Ive used Fram filters on every car Ive owned for the last 10 years and have never had any issues with them.

[BLUNT]

STP. Avoid Fram at all costs. Do a little searching on it, and you'll find out Fram filters are extremely crappy, have sloppy quality control, etc.

Hmmm.........My Dad has used Fram for as long as I know. Ive used Fram filters on every car Ive owned for the last 10 years and have never had any issues with them.

agreed.. i grew up on fram filters. although i was religious about 2k mile oil changes with dino oil i never once had a problem and i abused my cars on the street. ive also had several 250k mile american v8's using strictly fram filters.

[KFunk]

Here's one study on oil filter quality:

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

And a letter from Fram quality control engineer:

Russell,

I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey.

I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in

an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you

have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's

mouth, as it were.

I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no

quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we

buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely

capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to

bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were

often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not

properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so

tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no

time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for

about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only

difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow capacity. The

paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process

of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range

from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was

just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter

contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM

tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from

time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands

of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread.

I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their

claims are entirely and completely marketing bull****.

If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is

vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination

of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel,

will do the job of filtration to perfection.

Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can

quote me anytime.

[name omitted to protect submitter]

Personally, I've picked the guts of a fram filter out of a 396 ci engine because it got sucked thru the block. I've also seen a several other modern, normally reliable engines blown, which happened to be running Fram filters.

[Guest Anonymous]

Does one rotten oil filter ruin the reputation of the entire line?

KFunk, I too have read a number of opinions form reputed authorities that panned Fram filters. The problem with the opinions is that they are difficult to test. Just how accurate, reliable and up-to-date is the alleged test data?

For example, do we really know how long ago these alleged tests were performed? Do we know whether the test filters were identical to the filter numbers or models we might use? Do we know that Fram is still using the allegedly crummy materials that may have been used as a test model? Recall a few years ago when Audi was given a bum rap about their cars running off in gear. Ford Explorers or Firestone tires were supposedly problematic too. But to the best of my knowledge, Audi, Ford and Firestone are selling new and hopefully improved models. One might argue Fram has done likewise. Now I am not saying I know anything about Fram other than they have been around for a long time, theyre orange and they must sell a lot of filters including filters for M10 BMWs. Can they all be that bad? If so, I would expect a lot of warranty issues and recalls galore. (JimK can quote Magnuson-Moss (15 U.S.C. § 2301 et seq)

Notwithstanding the above, not all products, and certainly not all oil, fuel, cars etc. are the same. Some barely meet minimum standards while others surpass. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Fram manufactured filters under other brand names. Hint Hint! (I have no idea if this was true, but I was once told that certain purolators marked made in WGermany may have been produced by a company that begins with M.) Same may be true with soft drinks, gas, and oil.

[Guest Anonymous]

02's came stock with a Purolator filter installed. The best ones to use now are the Mahle/Mann/Knecht filters (black). Take a Fram and a Mahle filter, cut both in half and look at the difference. You'll see why.

[KFunk]

One might argue Fram has done likewise. Now I am not saying I know anything about Fram other than they have been around for a long time, theyre orange and they must sell a lot of filters including filters for M10 BMWs. Can they all be that bad? If so, I would expect a lot of warranty issues and recalls galore. (JimK can quote Magnuson-Moss (15 U.S.C. § 2301 et seq)

How can you argue that Fram has done likewise? Go for it. Lemme see it.

I have seen no evidence of such at all. Oh I know that companies can turn around their quality if it makes national attention. But has FRAM done this? Have they even gotten real national attention to warrant this?

The problem is that its extremely difficult to trace an engine failure back to the oil filter. The engine wore out and broke, musta been driving it too hard, factory defect in the engine, or just 'one of those things.'

For now, why would I trust my engine to the hope that FRAM has turned around their quality, when I see no evidence of it. It's just a few bucks extra for me to get a decent filter, so I'll get something good. My motor has 250K+ miles as it is on the original bottom end, and regularly sees over 7K RPM. It doesn't want to die, and I won't risk it by buying that cheap crap.

Oh, and none of the decent brands of oil filters are manufactured by FRAM. According to that study, STP is made by Champion Labs.

[gregp553]

This is a fun topic and makes for good reading. But don't think that anything was proved in that "study" by some guy who cut up a bunch of filters and measured the elements. It is not scientific, it is not performance-related and simply describes what he sees. In no way does it prove how any of the filters will perform in the real world. I've had 30 years of cars from muscle cars to working with professional race teams, to lab testing of oem parts vs. foreign knock-offs (sheet metal and lighting mostly) and my experience tells me that failures happen with any brand, any part. Some are better than others but you should buy what makes you feel good based on facts. Until you've used a particular brand for many years you can rely on the advice of someone you trust. But don't fall for hype. I've never had a bad oil filter by its design. Failures do happen though. I found it funny that the "inside guy" from Fram said he could be quoted at any time, but his name was omitted. That's funny. I have no dog in this fight so I say buy whatever filter makes you happy. But the truth is there are a lot harder working engines out there than my M10 engine and they're using Fram, Purolator and every other brand. To answer the original question, I have a Fram on my Koehler 17hp lawn tractor and it's running great. For your car? That's your choice.

[Guest Anonymous]

How can you argue that Fram has done likewise? Go for it. Lemme see it.

I have seen no evidence of such at all. Oh I know that companies can turn around their quality if it makes national attention. But has FRAM done this? Have they even gotten real national attention to warrant this?

The problem is that its extremely difficult to trace an engine failure back to the oil filter. The engine wore out and broke, musta been driving it too hard, factory defect in the engine, or just 'one of those things.'

For now, why would I trust my engine to the hope that FRAM has turned around their quality, when I see no evidence of it. It's just a few bucks extra for me to get a decent filter, so I'll get something good. My motor has 250K+ miles as it is on the original bottom end, and regularly sees over 7K RPM. It doesn't want to die, and I won't risk it by buying that cheap crap.

Oh, and none of the decent brands of oil filters are manufactured by FRAM. According to that study, STP is made by Champion Labs.

KFunk, you may not believe this from the tone of your response, but I agree with you that paying for a cheaper product may be costly in the long run. Of course there are exceptions to virtually every rule, otherwise we would all be using the most expensive platinum 4-prong plugs!)

There are a few things to consider here. it is hard to argue with a blind anonymous source. The letter, if it is legitimate, could have been easily drafted by a disgruntled employee or a competitor. Second, I haven't followed the company's travails, but I do believe it is currently owned by Honeywell. Whether that has an impact on quality is not clear. But one thing is clear, the purported letter writer's opinion is dated.

Next, consider the fact that my brothers and the dealer who services their Ferrari's uses Fram oil filters. I agree that is no guarantee of quality. However, I have seen Frams sitting on Ferrari engines as long as I can remember, and I would assume that if the filters were as bad as some would have us believe, no one in their right mind would risk even a $25 filter on a nice 12 cylinder engine.

My personal preference for oil filters has been Mahle and purolator, but I can't tell you exactly why. I have used other filters without incident though. Also, on my 6 cylinder models, they use a paper insert. The outside of the bmw cannisters actually recommend purolator brand. I have examined the filter medium for ac/delco, purolator and ah. . hem . . fram and they all look different to me. Whether one filters better than another is not clear to me since I change my oil frequently.

Interestingly, I recently looked at some STP brand filters. As I recall, some of the paper filter material could be seen through the holes in the filter and the paper looked blue gray. Since I saw this post, I looked at a Fram filter (CH6PL for a Ferrari) and the paper looks white. We might conclude that these were made by different manufacturers or different filters use different filter material or the manufacturers change filter material for any number of reasons like availability or even quality control. It is interesting to note that the STP filters apparently use the same numbering system as Fram with the addition of a prefix "S". I haven't made a study of this, but the cross reference chart I looked at seems to bear this out. "STP S3816" vs. Fram "PH3816" vs. Purolator L10813 vs. Champ "2816"

As far as personal experience, years ago I refused a couple of "first choice" filters when after sticking my finger in the threaded boss I came up with metal remnants. I also had a 69 SS396 and used whatever filters were available, and never had a problem. Same with 67 427 vette that I stupidly sold for what seems like the cost of a few filters, but that is another story. Beautiful car, not easy to drive every day.

Bottom line, you may be right to listen to what you hear and take it to heart. On the other hand, I recall my first 02 purchase when I was went against the advice that they were difficult to maintain, that the dealer had a lot of warranty issues, that parts were not readily available etc. etc.

Oh, and before I forget, I worked with people who swore by the toilet paper oil filters. I fact, I know of someone who with the toilet paper filter who is still driving a 65 international harvester with original bottom end. It has been a year since I spoke with him, but he swears his oil never gets dirty - but the paper element "supposedly" filters out the useful additives.

Good luck and good night.

[Roland]

I guess this is not a direct response to the original post, but it seems that everyone has meandered off topic.

I have read good things about Mobil1 filters and Amsoil filters. Any truth to this idea? Do these companies sell oil filters specifically for 02's?

Thanks and happy new year.

BTW, between the two filter brands I vote for Fram only because it is orange. I recall their ads that had the catch phrase "pay me now or pay me later." Having read some of the posts here, maybe the phrase should be pay me now AND pay me later.

[Guest]

Just like tires or batterys, there are just a few manufactures and many brands built to the customers specs.

I do beleave some brands have tighter/better parameters and materials in their specs for the manufacturer to follow then others and I will probably stay with Purolator or Mobile one for that reason

[drivebymaster]

I have read good things about Mobil1 filters and Amsoil filters. Any truth to this idea? Do these companies sell oil filters specifically for 02's?

Yes I am actually interested in this also. I have a friend of mine that swears by this stuff and says its the best damn oil he has ever used in any of his dodge pickups and ford trucks. I am curious as to whether or not it is infact better and will it cut down on the amount of times I need to put oil back into the car

[KFunk]

disclaimer: I'm drunk. Maybe in the morning I can reason better....

That source is likely easy to find. I just did a quick google search, and saw it quoted somewhere else where someone different chose to omit the author. That was someone else's choice, not the author. Not sure why Russell doesn't have the link on his site anymore. Used to be there.... but i'm lazy, and don't know where the original link/letter went.

Anyways, cut open both Fram and regular oil filter, and you'll see the difference. Frams are so cheap anyways, just buy one and cut it it open. Yes, I've seen it done, despite how cheap my ass is. The diff is obvious. It's too bad so many people don't actually look inside. I also know how painful it is for someone to accept it if they've been trusting FRAM filters for so long. Hell, my dad uses them, and I don't know how to tell him.

Yes, I've helped sell many piece of crap oil filters, and I don't like knowing that. Even my friends at Jiffy Lube don't like putting them on cars. But oh well, what ya gonna do for people that dont know better?

Personally, I use Mann or Mahle when I can. Just take a peek inside, and you can see the difference in quality. But unfortunately, I can't get them when I need, so I use Napa Gold a.k.a. Wix often, just because they're easy to get locally. Look inside, and they look strong and trustworthy. Not like a piece of paper barely glued together. Just saying Ferrari used them doesn't do much for me. Fram has made some half-decent filters, as said in the study. But I wouldn't trust Ferrari for studies on longevity. Fun and awesome cars, but not known for reliability or ease of maintenance.

Ah well, I need to drink some water and hope for a pleasant morning.

[ingraham]

Unless your GF has a special car, it doesn't matter in any measurable way.

There is no way for us to know the design or performance specifications for oil filters sold at retail. The manufacturers are not going to release the specs. For exactly one brand, however, we can know that the filters meet BMW specs. If that's important to you, buy your filters from BMW.

Some of you will say that BMW filters are made by Mahle, Purolator, Mann, Knecht, or whoever. That may be true, but there is no way to know unless you work in BMW's purchasing department, and in that case you will likely be sworn to secrecy.

Even if you knew that BMW filters were made by Mahle, that doesn't mean that Mahle filters sold under the Mahle brand have the same specs as the ones Mahle sells to BMW.

A few of the many things that don't settle this issue:

- What I use.

- What I used for 35 years.

- What my father used.

- If I had "issues" with the brand I used.

- If I never had "issues" with the brand I used.

- What an anonymous employee said.

- How a filter looks to me.

- How often I change my oil.

- Whether my engine failed.

- What my brother-in-law heard from a co-worker.

- What I saw on TV.

- And most important, what I read on the Internet.