Uneven front camber and caster on one side.

[Mucci]

Just got back from the alignment shop and I’m seeing quite different front camber and caster numbers from left to right even though the car still has stock strut mounts. 

LF

Camber: -0.2

Caster: 0.0

 

RF

 Camber: -1.7

 Caster: 1.3

 

I just got finished installing the following:

- New 15” wheels and 175/50-15 tires

- Shortened strut housings 2.25in and installed weld-in perches and adjuster sleeves

- 300# QA1 2.5” springs in front

- Koni Yellow MR2 rear shocks up front

- Koni Yellow rears

- SSS 250# 5in rear springs 

- Rear adjuster sleeves

- Energy Suspension top and bottom poly spring pads for the rear

 

I set up the coilovers at the exact same adjuster height +/- 1mm. I also measured the rim to fender distance left to right and they’re within a few mm. 
 

Am I correct in thinking this is a concerning amount of difference in front camber and caster? My worry is that something is tweaked and I didn’t notice. What do you all think?

 

[TobyB]

Well, and it's a 518 to boot!  You got probs! 

5 series front suspension's a kettle of cats all its own.

 

Yes, that's wrong.  Without looking at the car, the LF is standing up too straight

(the radius arm is too long, in effect) and the RF is tipped in too much at the top.

 

The RF-LF difference in camber can be bent strut tubes, 

 

but the caster's hard to figure.  It's HARD to move the strut tops fore- aft without 

it being really really obvious, and likewise, the radius arm attachment points are

pretty stout, too.  

 

huh.

 

t

[Mucci]

It’s not a 518. It’s a ‘75 2002. I didn’t realize that page heading until I got home. I assume they couldn’t find 2002 specs?

 

 So I should be looking for damage at the radius arms or strut towers?
 

When you say “tipped in” you mean camber?

Edited July 6, 2021 by Mucci

[uai]

What I am missing in the sheet is what's called Spreizung in German - didn't find the translation for it.

So that's camber - Sturz in german

 

 

And that's Spreizung in german - that's what I am missing

But there are two things I'd consider:
Sit in the car, or add an amount of your weight to the drivers seat while aligning (ok with #300 springs it won't change too much)
Get the car corner balanced also with weight in the drivers seat and disconnected swaybars - why else would you want adjustables when you're not corner balancing (stance only?).
Is there  a chance the car had an impact front left in the past?

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by uai

[TobyB]

12 hours ago, Mucci said:

It’s not a 518. It’s a ‘75 2002. I didn’t realize that page heading until I got home. I assume they couldn’t find 2002 specs?

 

 So I should be looking for damage at the radius arms or strut towers?
 

When you say “tipped in” you mean camber?

 

Yeah, I was being a bit flip- the suspension settings for a 5er are really... different.  But that

won't change the absolute values they measured.

 

Yes, look at the top of the strut towers.  I am pretty sure if there was THAT much damage,

you'd have spotted it already.  But it's worth being sure.

Likewise, the radius rod attachment points, AND the attaching hardware in particular-

it's possible to stack things up differently, or have an odd or slipped or collapsed bushing.

You're really looking for differences- even 1.6 degrees of caster seems a bit low, but 0 is pretty obviously not right.

 

As to camber, it's easier to play with.  One quick check is to measure the gap between the strut tube

and the tire on each side.  It should be pretty much identical- any difference indicates a bent tube.

But any other variation should be pretty easy to spot- a bent radius arm, radius arm attaching bolt,

etc.

 

Do be careful to measure to chassis points- the front sheetmetal (fenders, nose) is all quite adjustable

to make panel gaps even.  So there's no guarantee that it'll be consistent side- to- side.

 

hth,

t

 

 

[Lorin]

Am I reading the print out right and seeing that there is toe in on one rear wheel and toe out on the other rear wheel? 
 

 

On the front, even the side with castor only has 1.3 degrees which seems really low to me. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

..

Edited July 6, 2021 by Lorin

[Mucci]

9 hours ago, uai said:

Is there  a chance the car had an impact front left in the past?

 

You mean like this?


That was the car when I bought it. I've since replaced all the damaged body panels. I was told "the e-brake failed and it rolled into a tree". Looks more like a car shaped object to me...

I haven't noticed any buckling points on the interior wing but obviously something's off. 

[Mucci]

35 minutes ago, TobyB said:

 

Yeah, I was being a bit flip- the suspension settings for a 5er are really... different.  But that

won't change the absolute values they measured.

 

Yes, look at the top of the strut towers.  I am pretty sure if there was THAT much damage,

you'd have spotted it already.  But it's worth being sure.

Likewise, the radius rod attachment points, AND the attaching hardware in particular-

it's possible to stack things up differently, or have an odd or slipped or collapsed bushing.

You're really looking for differences- even 1.6 degrees of caster seems a bit low, but 0 is pretty obviously not right.

 

As to camber, it's easier to play with.  One quick check is to measure the gap between the strut tube

and the tire on each side.  It should be pretty much identical- any difference indicates a bent tube.

But any other variation should be pretty easy to spot- a bent radius arm, radius arm attaching bolt,

etc.

 

Do be careful to measure to chassis points- the front sheetmetal (fenders, nose) is all quite adjustable

to make panel gaps even.  So there's no guarantee that it'll be consistent side- to- side.

 

hth,

t

 

 

Great info, thanks Toby! I'll take some measurements and see what I discover.

[uai]

4 hours ago, Mucci said:

I've since replaced all the damaged body panels. I was told "the e-brake failed and it rolled into a tree". Looks more like a car shaped object to me...
I haven't noticed any buckling points on the interior wing but obviously something's off. 

The offset is more like touched a curb with locked brakes...

How did you get the camber? Adjustable strut bearings? are the struts the original ones? perhaps it's just the strut that's bent. If you have the missing geometry value (Spreizung) then you know where to look for the error. Go to a different (modern) alignment shop they should have that on their printout

[Mucci]

8 hours ago, uai said:

The offset is more like touched a curb with locked brakes...

How did you get the camber? Adjustable strut bearings? are the struts the original ones? perhaps it's just the strut that's bent. If you have the missing geometry value (Spreizung) then you know where to look for the error. Go to a different (modern) alignment shop they should have that on their printout

Strut mounts are stock but car has been lowered. I’m ordering GC camber/caster plates tomorrow but want to figure out where the core issue is before making camber/caster adjustments. 
 

 

[uai]

2 hours ago, Mucci said:

Strut mounts are stock but car has been lowered. I’m ordering GC camber/caster plates tomorrow but want to figure out where the core issue is before making camber/caster adjustments. 

Then that's really odd -1.7° negative on the right side and -0.2 on the other on standard struts?

Normal is +0.5 ±0,5.

My guess (can only be a guess) a hit front left.

Go to a modern alignment shop that can measure more.
And while you're at it -3.4 and -3.7 at the rear is also very much negative camber. I made my rear adjustable so I can have 2.5 neg rear whilst being low

 

[TobyB]

On 7/6/2021 at 9:22 AM, Mucci said:

You mean like this?
 

Nah, it takes a lot more than that to start to move the inner fenders and upper strut mounts.

(I've misplaced the pic of how I managed it- but it took a LOT more Jersey barrier at WAY faster than that)

 

But if the 'tree' happened to catch the front just right it might have pushed a radius rod back a bit.

 

I agree, it's worth chasing down why things aren't pretty close first-

but then, adjustable radius rods, lower arms, upper mounts, roll center spacers,  that's all fair game 

AFTER you're pretty sure that your points are solidly about where they ought to be.

 

As to the rear- that looks pretty normal for a car lowered that far.  If you're not planning

on tracking it, taking out a degree or so will make it more docile. 

If you are, don't mess.  That's success!

 

t

likes lots of caster for a track car, too.

[Lorin]

I don’t think that Toe Out on one rear wheel and Toe In on the other rear wheel is at all normal.  That car will crab down the road at an angle. 

[Mucci]

Got on my chest and had a good look at the radius arms. They look pretty straight to me. 

[Mucci]

I looked closer at the inner wings for any sign of deformation. This bulge under the color code decal caught my eye. Is this normal? Where it meets the rain tray looks a little pushed backwards. The drivers side looks more straight at this area of the tray. 
 

 

 

Otherwise the wings look pretty straight. No obvious buckling areas or deformations that I could see.

 

I'll get it in the air soon to take some strut housing measurements. Could also be my modifications of the strut tower mount bearing sleeves. The Koni's are 15mm shafts so I had to open up the bearing sleeves 1mm to get them to work. But at it's worst that's like +/- 0.5mm change up top. Seems unlikely it'd cause over a degree change in camber or caster.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Mucci