Timing Light and other Qs

[RainMoore]

Hah no some pushing is probably good.

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-26140

 

This looks right to me, but before I order it I thought I'd double check, and I'm sure I can get the roll pin at a hardware store.

['76mintgrün'02]

Nope.  Not those.  It looks like Summit no longer stocks them.  Sorry about that.  They do give the part number though.  (see below)  I'm not seeing them for a buck or two right now.  They used to be easier to find.  Now I am seeing $5-$8 each and $9 shipping, which is bullshit.  Happy hunting.  Let us know if you find any good deals.  I'd like to purchase a ten pack.

 

Bosch Automotive 1230107011 - Bosch Automotive Washers

     Write the First Review

 

Part Number: BCH-1230107011

• 

Not Available

Bosch Automotive 1230107011 - Bosch Automotive Washers

 

[RainMoore]

hah, damn. Glad I didn't order them, thanks for the part #, tho. That helps!

 

Spoke to the specialty euro auto mechanic who used to service this large rumbling paperweight I'm tinkering with. He said he's ready to retire because of stuff exactly like $15 for a single washer that's basically impossible to find. It was...encouraging haha

 

Good call researching the different distributors. No free lunch, as they say. Might wait and get a 123, having this one rebuilt wouldn't be all that much less. Probably do it eventually as a backup tho.

['76mintgrün'02]

What is the part number on the distributor you have there?

[RainMoore]

That would be a 008 I believe.

['76mintgrün'02]

Thanks for the information.  Sometimes the last three digits of the distributor number are enough to identify it, but there were two of them that ended in 008. 

 

Because yours is the vacuum retard model, it is the 0 231 180 008, as opposed to the Tii 0 231 151 008, which is mechanical advance only.

 

Here is another link to my distributor thread that shows that model being taken apart.  It has little E clips holding the weights on, as opposed to the tiny "hairpins".  Those hairpins are usually worn out, so the clips are a plus.

 

 

This is what you'll see underneath the points plate.  Reaching in with a pick, you can undo the two springs from their posts and the center post will lift out.  Assuming you're so inclined.

 

 

Tom

[RainMoore]

So I finally did the advance curve test. It's timed by the little BB at 1500 RPM (which is 25 degrees advance mark), with OT 12 degrees advance above. I'll list the advance at OT, seems simpler to me that way. Then I guess you could just add 25 degrees to get the total advance.

900 RPM (Idle) - OT 26 Degrees

1000 RPM         - OT 27 Degrees

1500 RPM         - OT 31 Degrees

2000 RPM         - OT 43 Degrees

 

It maxes out the advance at 2000 RPM. That sound right to you? Did I even do this right? Tricky as the timing is still wonky as hell but this is pretty close.

 

Got the transmission working, turns out the dipstick was showing it was full only because I wasn't running it in gear. The more I changed gears while running the engine the lower it got. Ended up putting a little over 3 quarts in and it's now full and working well. It's actually about 1 MM over the top line now, so I'm going to do a fluid change soon.

Unfortunately I live in a part of town I can't really take it out on the road until I get registration and a plate and whatnot, good chance I'd get a pricey ticket, but it seems to be gearing well.

 

Having run it and revved it a lot more I've noticed a lot of fumes coming out of the breather hose, and a faint gasoline smell I think. Is that normal?

 

[Hans]

I'd be looking for full advance above 3000.. 

I appreciate that there is more than one way to skin this cat, but I'm old and slow, so I ignore the BB and just use OT as a base point. If you have 43 deg BTC at 2000 rpm, I'd say you are way over advanced. Did you consult the info in teh Blue Book for your model?

[RainMoore]

I just did, and its definitely over advanced.

But to be clear, its says to set the timing by the BB at 1400 RPM (which is 25 degree advance), then measures the advance as I did.

 

I should say this is for the 003 dizzy, and I've got the 008 which isn't listed, but it reads:

1000 - 11-15

1500 - 17-21

2000 - 23-27

2500 - 30-33

3000 - 37-41

3500 - 41-45

4000 - 42-46 (end)

 

So you're right that my advance seems to be stopping early (or I'm reading wrong).

That being said, these reading are probably at OTM like I've been doing, right?

I use the BB to set the base timing at 1400 rpms, and then I'm increasing the rpms (starting at 1000) and bumping up the advance on my light until I find OTM, and that's how I'm registering the advance.

[Hans]

It seems we have two issues here: where to set the timing, and, how to use your fancy timing light. Mine is the old fashioned type so I can't help on that.

As for timing, assuming you've got the engine running, its my understanding that using the BB, you set it at your rpm of choice, and thats it. You're done. . That assumes the correct distributor for your motor, and a healthy distributor. You could use the timing light to verify results across the range, and perhaps tweak as required.

 

Or, you use TDC (OT)  as the base and set maximum advance based on your numbers. Or at least some point on the scale so as not to over rev a cold motor , and then maybe tweak a little to confirm results at idle and higher levels. Your new timing light will do this using OT as a reference. Otherwise, you need to mark your max advance point on the flywheel or front pulley.

 

In either case, if you hear pinging on acceleration, youve gone too far.

 

It was suggested that you could use the BB as a reference with your fancy timing light instead of OT because its easier to see. That should work if you do the math but I think it confuses the issue for beginers by combining the two methods. YMMV.

Try to mark the OT line if you can't see it clearly. Or see if there is a pointer for the front pulley marks.

 

Some will tell you to just keep advancing until it pings, then back off. I prefer the timing light over my ears.

 

According to the Blue Book chart, the 2002 A should have max advance of 36? So your distributor is exceeding that. I can't say if thats a bad thing but it seems like a lot of advance. I think the A also uses vacuum advance.

 

Keep in ming that those specs were set before the introduction of lower octane unleaded corn fed gas. So 46 deg might have been fine then, but perhaps too much today. It seems like a lot.

I have a centrifugal dist with twin Webers on a ti motor so my experience is different.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Hans
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['76mintgrün'02]

2 hours ago, RainMoore said:

It's timed by the little BB at 1500 RPM (which is 25 degrees advance mark), with OT 12 degrees advance above.

 I'll list the advance at OT, seems simpler to me that way. Then I guess you could just add 25 degrees to get the total advance.

900 RPM (Idle) - OT 26 Degrees

1000 RPM         - OT 27 Degrees

1500 RPM         - OT 31 Degrees

2000 RPM         - OT 43 Degrees

 

 

What do you mean by "with the OT 12 degrees advance above"?

OT is the top dead center line on the flywheel.  (Zero degrees of advance).

 

"It's timed by the little BB at 1500 RPM"

With the light's advance feature set to zero, engine running 1500 rpm you see the BB in the window.  Correct?

 

If the BB is at 1500 rpm, your chart should say OT = 25 degrees at 1500 rpm.

Since it doesn't, I don't know what to make of the rest of the numbers.

 

 

In the early style distributor like you have, those springs rub against the lobes on the underside of the center post, which wears them flat = weaker.  As the springs get weak, the total advance happens at lower rpms. 

 

The factory service manual gives the advance curve for your distributor.  That can be found in the history and reference section of the Articles, in the drop down menu at the top of the page.

 

Tom

[Hans]

As I understand it, OP is using a different distributor. Do we know what teh original application was?

['76mintgrün'02]

His 0231 180 008 is shown as a '74 manual transmission application in the Bosch booklet.  It doesn't list the automatic.

[RainMoore]

Hey so I've obviously gotten turned around somewhere. Let me see if I can clear this up.

 

44 minutes ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

"It's timed by the little BB at 1500 RPM"

With the light's advance feature set to zero, engine running 1500 rpm you see the BB in the window.  Correct?

Exactly. This is manufacturer spec. When running at 1500 rpm, the BB is against the flat edge of the viewing window, with the light's advance showing 0 Degrees.

I am then setting the engine at varying increments of 500 rpms, and then bumping the advance on the light until I find OTM. I thought that using OTM would give the total advance by adding that number to the base of 25 bTDC.

If I'm setting timing with the BB should I be using the BB to find the advance curve instead?

 

5 minutes ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

His 0231 180 008 is shown as a '74 manual transmission application in the Bosch booklet.  It doesn't list the automatic.

Right. This is strange as the 008 advance numbers aren't listed in the blue book.

 

50 minutes ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

What do you mean by "with the OT 12 degrees advance above"?

OT is the top dead center line on the flywheel.  (Zero degrees of advance).

Think I've made this really confusing. I meant that when I'm increasing RPMs, I'll find OTM when I reach 12 degrees advance on the light. So that would be 37 Degrees advance total...no?

Looking at my numbers now, tho, I must have done something wrong. There's still the problem with this distributor and uneven timing (bouncing timing marks and engine shake) so I've been tweaking the carb to keep it from dying at idle while working out the transmission issues. I may have sullied these readings somehow.

I'll try again today.

['76mintgrün'02]

2 minutes ago, RainMoore said:

Exactly. This is manufacturer spec. When running at 1500 rpm, the BB is against the flat edge of the viewing window, with the light's advance showing 0 Degrees.

I am then setting the engine at varying increments of 500 rpms, and then bumping the advance on the light until I find OTM. I thought that using OTM would give the total advance by adding that number to the base of 25 bTDC.

If I'm setting timing with the BB should I be using the BB to find the advance curve instead?

 

Bumping the advance feature up on the light until the OT line shows up will tell you the total advance at that rpm.

 

There is no need to add 25 degrees to that number, unless you are spotting the BB instead of the OT line.

 

(the BB is just a short cut I find useful at higher rpm readings.  skip it, if it is confusing and just continue to use the OT line).