Distributor Selection

[dave-r]

After removing distributor it has, what I believe to be, way to much vertical play. Roughly .021or .533 of play as shown in picture below. So a rebuild is in order. I believe for right now I will get a distributor for a '71 as suggested earlier and send this one to Advanced Distributors. For now I believe I will re assemble and see what some more testing/tinkering can do.


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['76mintgrün'02]

13 minutes ago, dave-r said:

see what some more testing/tinkering can do

 

I vote for THAT ^

 

a little disassembly for cleaning and some lubrication would be time well spent.  

 

remove the clamps/condenser/points/pod/points plates,

with l just six little screws.   

(find a nice fat flat-bladed driver to fit them, they're soft)

 

once the points plate's removed, you can see the advance mechanism too, which is fun.

get in there!!

 

It looks like a nice example !

 

Spend some of the money your saving, 

not buying the 123, yet,

on a 5568 timing light.

I do love compyooterized timing lights.

[dave-r]

Good Evening,

     Little update, after pulling distributor I got to looking at points and noticed the gap larger than it should be so I set them where they should be, which is so much nicer when it is not in the car!! so after that I set unit back in engine bay and decided to fire it up. Turned over right away, checked dwell which was about 57 little low but not to far off, set timing to the ball at 1500rpm again and seemed to be running much better so off I went towards the mountains for a little spin. To my delight it was running great!! buzzing right along so along my way is a spot that we park to do gravel grind bike rides on Wednesday nights and a few of the guys were there so I stopped in and talked for a bit. Afterwards I headed back down the mountain only to realize as I pulled out of the lot it was back!! the rough running/miss which would only subside over 3000-3500 rpm (Or so it felt) and continued the whole way home. when I pulled into the garage I went ahead and popped cap off and check gap on points and they were good to go....

 

     SOOOOOO.... maybe mechanical advance in distributor is sticking fully advanced?? Maybe coil is suffering some sort of heat soak?? Condenser crapping out? So I guess my next step is to do as suggested above and dismantle, clean and reassemble distributor. At same time I may go ahead and install Hot Spark or equiv. and maybe a new coil to not only ensure Ohm load on electronic bit is correct but also due to the fact that my coil is original and does get rather hot while running. 

 

     As always any suggestions are more than welcome and appreciated. I do love to tinker so I do not mind taking on much of anything BUT the $60 dollar shim and rebuild kit for the Dizzy is a bit crazy in my mind when a fully rebuilt one can be had for just a bit more, although I do enjoy originality. 

 

     Thanks again, Dave.

['76mintgrün'02]

I don't know about the $60 kit.  Could you post a link?

 

The shim kit I bought was under $20.

Usually, you just need the fiber washer, or two and maybe swap in or out a thicker or thinner shim washer.  The rest of the kit is extra stuff, some of which does not even fit our models.

You can order the fiber washers sold separately, for around a buck a piece.  Two needed per distributor.  Swapping new ones might bring your axial play back into spec.

https://www.vwnos.com/1230107011

You can also get the shaft sealing o-ring.

https://www.vwnos.com/1230251010

 

I use a 5/32" roll pin to reattach the gear, after drilling/pressing out the original.

That way it is really easy to get back in there later.

 

I think it is good to keep track of which parts were where, when it comes to weights on their pivot pins and springs and things.  They've worn into position and may align funny another way.

 

bring the dwell up into spec.

timing the BB in the hole at XXXX rpm is not really "setting the timing".

a variable light will tell you total advance... and stuff.

 

setting used points with a feeler gauge is not accurate enough.

 

the light I mentioned above has a built in dwell meter.

If you do not have, or want to buy a dwell meter, then hotspark or pertronix are the way to go.

 

I'd hold off on the new coil.

 

maybe spend that money on a nice set of Kingsborne plug wires.

 

NGKbp6ES plugs are popular.

 

 

 

 

[dave-r]

   My apologies, I had thought it was around $60.00 I was looking into a kit like this:

http://www.texasaircooled.com/catalog/BOSCH-Distributor-Shaft-Kit-Shim-Kit-w-Seal-Ring-059-998-211.html

which is only $45 or so, comes with many parts I would never use but has exactly everything I would. I am using my old trusty Sunpro/Actron Inductive Engine Analyzer I have had this thing forever and is nice as it does RPM, Dwell as well as many other test. Anyway I am waiting on my loaned out adjustable light to come home, hopefully this weekend (should have known not to lend it out) it is a adjustable Craftsman light that seems to be accurate. At that time I will test max advance and not be as worried about the 1500RPM I keep referencing but with my simple light to get in the neighborhood, normally I just set timing by ear, take a good drive and listen for any ping..if I hear anything I will set back a little and call it good. I am running the NGK you list and had a friend of mine make me a set of wires as he works at a local speed shop, admittedly they focus on drag racing cars but they Ohm out even (though I have no per ft Ohm to reference to). My coil does ohm out on the primary where it should and my factory resistor wire is intact and test out ok.  

 

    I will get shims and other O-rings ordered and get this thing straightened out!!

['76mintgrün'02]

excellent.

I guess you did say the dwell was at 57*, which implied that you had a meter... sorry.

Sounds like you are all set, in the tool department.  

 

 

[Mark92131]

On 4/25/2018 at 3:31 PM, dave-r said:

And looking at my emissions sticker it should be vac retard and advance..but it definitely is not!!

 

Could you take a picture of your emission sticker?

 

Thanks,

 

 

Mark92131

[dave-r]

Yes sir I will when I get to garage. I really do think it is a vacuum advance after removing from car and looking at what the vacuum lever does. I, on suggestion of Mr. Mintgrun (sorry I never caught your first name) have ordered shims and fiber washers so I am going to rebuild this one and clean it up. I also ordered a HotSpark to give it a try...although I see me using the points for a while longer, I mean if they worked before no reason not to work again. I really can't wait to get into the workings of this dizzy, I am thinking I can make a jig to use on my mill to test, adjust and set my max mechanical advance. I have been looking at mapping graphs for different curves. We will see.

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['76mintgrün'02]

My name is Tom.
 

That is definitely a vacuum advance distributor and the sticker that Mark posted suggested that it would be.

It will be interesting to see if your sticker is different.

I did a little googling of your model number, along with 1975 automatic and did not find much.

It may be a later replacement distributor, which would be nice... fewer miles of wear and tear than OE.

 

Does anyone know if this is the stock unit for this car?

Or, what the stock model number is?

I am just curious.

 

Knowing you have a milling machine has me less worried about you drilling the pin and removing the gear, to get at the internals.  There will be a casting date on the inside bottom of the housing.  The one I am running is from '96, iirc... and seems quite fresh.

 

I have a couple of the model 164 vacuum advance units (stock for my '76), but the curve is a little steeper than the #021 I am using and I got pinging down low in the rpm range, while trying to get more advance up top.  

I hope you will share your progress/experience.  It would be fun to follow along.

 

Tom

[dave-r]

Ok..so had a productive and rewarding morning in the shop. After receiving fiber shims, some extra metal shims and a new o-ring I removed distributor and began disassembling it. I started by removing all external devices (Vac Advance, Clips, Points, condenser and so on) then proceeded to remove pin from drive gear, then remove points/vac advance plates, removed shaft and weights/centrifugal assembly. Cleaned and lubed everything. Was missing felt between upper and lower bushing that wicks oil to upper shim/fiber shim pack (not sure where it could have gone!!)

Reassembly was reverse of tear down and in the bottom stack of shims is were I made up for slack, really glad I ordered an assortment of shims!! During reassembly I dipped all shims and fiber washers in motor oil and used a no melting, high temp grease between plates and moving parts. Got play to about .002, can't even feel it. Went ahead and used a scotch brite pad on body of dizzy and it polished up nice!!

Reinstalled points and condenser, man is it nice setting gap on points outside of car!! Reinstalled in engine ( apparently 180° out, little backfire through carb!! Oops) and while I had things apart I tested Vacuum assembly too. Also painted Ball on flywheel red and TDC line white, as I have been meaning to do.

Started motor ran/idled well straight away, checked dwell, stopped engine, adjusted dwell, rinse and repeat until about 70° was achieved. Then bumped to 2800, set ball (my adjustable light has not come home yet, angry face) and ball is now dead steady. No jumping around...so nice. Then I set idle way down, adjusted idle jet, then set idle to 850 (using my dwell/tach/multi use 30yr old analyzer) went for drive.

Drive was excellent!! Sounded good, felt good!! Best it has ever run. Went to auto parts store and got a bit of vac hose and connected from angled port under carb (not sure this is right) to vacuum advance. Readjusted idle as it jumped to about 1400 after that. I really like what the vac advance did to not only low rev take off but it really makes it start like a champ!!

Tom, thank you.

Also attached a pic of my emissions sticker, which oddly is for a manual car, but mine is, or was, born an Auto car.

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['76mintgrün'02]

OH man, that was fun to read.  Nice job.  Funny, I was just thinking of asking for a progress report.    

As for that felt pad, I think maybe that was just used in the earlier style distributor.

I have never seen on in the style you (and I) have.

 

On concern is that you said your dwell is at seventy, but I am guessing that is just a typo and you meant sixty.  (?)

 

The other thing I am wondering about is your choice of vacuum source.  There are two nipples at the base of the carb, one on the carb and one below.  Ported over, manifold under.  

 

In my opinion, you want to use the ported nipple, on the carb itself.

It sounds like you are currently using manifold vacuum, which will pull in those 12* at idle.

Ported will not add any at idle.

(I don't see any change at idle, pulling the vacuum hose off the pod).

 

I set up two vacuum gauges in my console, so I could compare the two vacuum signals.

I'd like to add an overlay to the ported vacuum gauge, with the degrees of advance shown, to know exactly what it is adding and when... but it is easy to estimate, knowing it is pulling 12 degrees between 5-11 on the gauge, or, about 2 degrees per inch of vacuum in that range.

 

Now that you know how fun it is to work on them, you could keep your out for another one to refresh.   

 

What sort of air cleaner are you using? 

(adapting stock units to Webers is another 'hobby' of mine)

 

Thank you for sharing all that.  Nice photos too.

Made my day.

Tom

[dave-r]

Tom,
Yes meant 60°, big fingers, little screen. Should have proofread. I will switch ports, I thought it should have made more sense to have the vacuum come from above butterfly.

As far as air cleaner I am using a filter I had from an air cooled VW, similar to sort you get from Redline. I like the look of it, opens up the engine bay.

I think I really could go with more advance, if my loaned out adjustable timing light does not come home this week I am going to buy a new one of the sort that you have. For now it is in safe zone.

I wish I had taken a few more photos. I did take weights and springs apart and cleaned/lubed. Didn't want to set them down to take photos and lose track of something, although it appears that they really only go back together one way.

My apologies for my writing style. Spend most of my day tech talking.

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['76mintgrün'02]

Apologize?

 

Yeah, I seldom regret taking too many photos.  I took some yesterday, while working on air cleaner stuff and chuckled a little when I learned I'd taken 110 of them.

 

The weights only go on one way, meaning right side up, but you can swap them pin for pin, if you are not careful (or want to).  The two style springs could go on either set of pins as well.  The post in the middle could be flipped 180, to relate to one or the other weight/per lobe...  I found once that that difference affected whether the weights were extending the same amount, which was undoubtedly due to the way things had worn.  They are fun little puzzles.

 

Looking at the top view of your distributor, it appears that the dwell adjuster I made for mine would fit.  If I get off my butt and make some more, I will put you on the list of people to solicit ; )

 

My car came with a Weber style filter and Bento gave me his old stock air cleaner, when he went to EFI.  The guy before him had hacked off the bottom and literally pounded down the top, so it took some fiddling to put it back into service.  In my opinion that was maybe my best UpGrade yet... going back to stock.

 

The BMW diagrams call it the air silencer for a reason.  

It has the advantage of sucking cool air in through the snorkel.

Imho, they look nice, but I can appreciate your taste as well.

If you install them with wing nuts, then undoing three of them lifts it right off.

But, I will step-off this off-topic soap-box.

 

It will be fun to hear what you learn with a variable timing light.

[Tomhae]

Dave, I believe I am also experiencing the vertical play issue you described. Twice now, from a stop the car has died. I found the rotor was hitting the top of the cap and breaking the tab that holds it in place on the shaft. I found there is about a 16th of an inch vertical play in the shaft. I have never rebuilt a distributor, is the shim kit install something that i will need specialized tools for?

[dave-r]

Hmm. You can't go off the play where the rotor attaches as it is not a solid piece of metal, where the rotor attaches only goes as far down as the centrifugal advance portion of the distributor. To actually check axial play you need to remove from motor and check at brass gear. With that being said I do not think a 1/16" would break anything as the button in your cap is spring loaded and will absorb that movement. What the axial play in lower portion does is makes steady timing difficult as where the gear engages as the axial play allows gear to ride up and down it also allows slight rotation of distributor, therefore making timing bounce around.

I believe I would start by ensuring that you have the correct, and same brand, cap and rotor as well as ensure that you are pressing rotor fully on to shaft and engaging keyway/slot.

If you Google BMW 2002 Bosch distributor there are tons of diagrams available that give a good explanation of all the bits inside. Really simple once you get into it and rewarding build, if you have patience and some mechanical knowledge.

Not sure any of this helps.

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