Copper head gasket

[Naz]

Has anyone ever used a copper head gasket on their 2002 engine? I've been looking into some of the benefits and find it an interesting option for a high compression engine. Probably over kill for my application but if your building a racer is probably be inclined to have one or two made.

 

http://m.paeco.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paeco.com%2FWeiand%2520Air%2520Cleaners.htm&utm_referrer=#2759

 

 

 

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[Preyupy]

That is very old technology. If you are running more compression than a stock head gasket will take you should try a MLS  (multi-layer steel) gasket.  Cometic makes them in just about any bore and thickness by special order, a number of places have them in standard bore and thickness. Just know the head and block have to be mirror smooth for them to seal properly. 

 

If if you can't make a standard gasket hold up you are probably running more compression or boost than is safe with pump gas. Detonation will kill a head gasket in just a few seconds. 

[TobyB]

I use the standard gasket in my race car...

 

t

 

[percy]

8 hours ago, Preyupy said:

That is very old technology. If you are running more compression than a stock head gasket will take you should try a MLS  (multi-layer steel) gasket.  Cometic makes them in just about any bore and thickness by special order, a number of places have them in standard bore and thickness. Just know the head and block have to be mirror smooth for them to seal properly.

 

I understood the gist of the poster's question to be whether anyone had experience with a copper head gasket on an M10 engine.  I think I have only met one person who used a copper head gasket - and that was on a specially built turbo charged E21 application.  Without more particulars, I cannot say whether it was good or bad.

 

You said older technology  - not better.  Because something is very old technology, does not necessarily mean it should be dismissed or disfavored over newer technology.  "Older technology" may work just as well - if not better than a newer version.  To the best of my knowledge, M10 engines, in their mass-produced form, never used anything but the steel composite gaskets that are readily available from most part suppliers.  This is what most of us know, and for obvious reasons, this is what most of us use.  Many factors could have been responsible for the widespread used of steel composite gaskets over copper - including simple economics and it is therefore hard to conclude that copper was not used on these engines because the steel alternative works better.  Maybe, precious metals might work the best for some engine components, but practicality probability relates to why we rarely contemplate the subject.

 

I use the stock steel composite gaskets without issues, and therefore have had little reason to experiment with a copper alternative.  I have used copper gaskets on other applications, e.g., a tractor and flat head engines.  If they were readily available and affordable, I might consider trying one on my M10 and M30 engines.  However, having had acceptable results using stock (non-cutting-ring) head gaskets for years and years, there is not much incentive to deviate from what works.

 

You mention the need to have mating surfaces "mirror smooth."  This is only true in a general sense.  Here's what Fel-Pro says about the subject:.

Quote

If the surface is too smooth, the gasket can slip and leak, but if the surface is too rough, the gasket will have a difficult time conforming to surface imperfections and may also leak. Surface finish can be checked using a surface finish comparator or a profilometer. http://www.felpro-only.com/blog/gasket-sealing-surface-finish/

 

Quote

Roughness Average (R_a) is the average micro inch measurement of peak-to-valley roughness height of a “flat” surface. The lower the R_a number, the smoother the surface.  

 

Fel-Pro recommends a finish of 60 to 100 R_a (roughness average) for cast iron cylinder heads and blocks, and 50 to 60 R_a for aluminum. Fel-Pro uses proprietary head gasket coatings and facing materials designed to fill in minor surface imperfections and allow for improved sealing on imperfect surfaces found in the repair environment. OEM MLS gaskets work well on new, flat, clean castings, since they require a very smooth surface finish, usually 20-30 R_a or less. Fel-Pro’s PermaTorque® MLS head gaskets use a specialized coating that accommodates finishes as rough as 60 R_a. Surface flatness is equally important to surface finish, so always check components to ensure they are not warped or distorted. To maintain constant contact between the head gasket and mating surfaces, all deck surfaces must start out flat and remain flat after being torqued to specification. A good rule for flatness is that surface flatness, measured in thousandths of an inch, should never exceed the number of cylinders on each bank across the length of the block.

 

For example, no block or cylinder head should exceed .003″ out-of-flat if there are 3 cylinders, as there would be in an inline-3 of V6 engine. Inline-4 and V8 applications should never exceed .004″ out-of-flat and so on. No block or head should not be more than .002″ out-of-flat across the width of the surface. http://www.felpro-only.com/blog/gasket-sealing-surface-finish/

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by percy

[Andersson]

A couple of friends of mine experimented with a copper head gasket for about 20 years ago on a high compression M10 engine. All I can remember is that it didn´t worked for them.

[kbmb02]

1 hour ago, TobyB said:

I use the standard gasket in my race car...

 

t

 

 

+1 -> standard (Elring brand) gaskets in my race cars.

[Preyupy]

My point was why would you have a custom Copper gasket made when there are composite and MLS gaskets readily available.  As for the surface finish I was talking about the MLS gaskets needing a very smooth finish as they DON'T fill the minor surface imperfections.  Also we need a lot more information about the rest of the engine specifications before we can recommend a proper head gasket.  Like Toby said in his race car a stock head gasket works just fine.  I used them for many years on my race engines but started having trouble with them about 6-7 years ago and moved to MLS gaskets on engines over 185 hp. 

 

The factory used a cutter ring style gasket on the Ti, Tii, and Turbo engines in the late 60's through the mid 70's.  The main problem with them was the need to surface the head every time the gasket was changed to make sure there was good aluminum for the cutter ring to engage.  I found a Turbo engine that someone had just kept putting new gaskets on and they kept leaking (there were at least 6 different witness marks on the head).  Current head gasket technology is much better than it was 40 years ago the need for O rings on high output engines is much less these days.  We won't get into the Cooper rings and engines designed to run with NO gasket at all. 

[percy]

I was agreeing with you.  I understood your point and was merely supplementing it.   

 

There is not much demand for copper head gaskets - since the steel composite alternatives are, for the most part, dependable, available and affordable.  Cutting ring and "o ringing" blocks are proven on highly stressed competition engines, but newer technology reduces (not necessarily eliminates) some of the need for their use.

 

As I said, I am not personally familiar with anyone currently using a copper head gasket on an M10, so it is hard to evaluate their benefits over the commonly-available alternatives.  By the same token, magnesium and titanium alloy pistons sound like interesting alternatives to aluminum alloy pistons - but I am not familiar with anyone currently using them.  (Or an overwhelming need to try using them.)  

Edited March 21, 2017 by percy

[Naz]

Thanks Percy. Very informative. Don't think I'll run out and get cooper gaskets but I found it interesting none the less.


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