engine and drivetrain No Start - Nice Weather Almost Gone!

[Boultman]

I'll start by saying that this forum has helped me a lot in the past year of ownership of my '75 2002 (THANKS!), and that i searched my issue quite a bit before posting. I have seem similar post, but have either ruled-out the solutions that have been brought-up, or the OP never concluded their post and explained their solution!   

 

1975, 2002 base, stock aside from Weber 38/38 w/ manifold, battery re-located, and ANSA exhaust.  

 

I"ve had this car a year, and it also had an issue with starting once hot.  It seemed to get worse and worse, and i finally decided to start adjusting things to correct the issue.  Timing, replace ignition items, carb adjust.  

The replacement of ignition items didn't seem to change symptoms one iota.  So tore carb apart, put smaller jets in it (50's to 45's), as it always seemed to run rich.  I since can't get it to run and drive. 

 

Symptoms:

• Starts decent when cold (even after a week or more), with a reasonable amount of turning-over needed. 
• If you shut it down for 2+ minutes, it will almost leave me stranded.  
• If i wait 1-1.5 hours.  It usually start ok.  sometimes instantly, better than when cold
• Sometimes if i shut it off for even 2-3 seconds, it won't restart.  
• once running, it idles sweet, and Runs like a bat out of hell. 

 

Steps So Far:

• Looked for any and all Vacuum leaks.  Found none
• Fuel is not Boiling 
• Added in-line clear filter. also has clean fuel at good level in the filter
• mech fuel pump working as it should
• good spark from coil lead, and all plugs
• Coil (blue) has 9.2V (is this correct? no petronix, has new points)
• Point gap is dead-on
• Carb Float is 18mm, dead on
• Float valve seems to be closing well (blew into it as hard as i could while actuating) 

 

Replaced:

• Plugs
• Cables
• Cap & Rotor
• Points
• Condenser 
• Coil
• Battery

 

Notes:

• with someone cranking the engine we can get it to start when i manually adjust timing by hand by rotating distributor. it will start if i advance quite a bit, but not idle. (lots of good fireworks shooting out the top of the carb)
• When i spin it back to the location of decent timing, it will die.  
• I have NOT checked valves.  but valves were supposedly adjusted not long before i bought the vehicle, and again, it idles and runs great... once it is running. 

 

any help or direction would be appreciated.  I'm in the coastal Houston area and we have about 6 more perfect days left before summer.  I just burned another one today

 

cheers

 

jb

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Boultman

[bento]

How are you attempting to start it during that 2+ minutes to one hour window? I find mine a bit hard to start in that zone if I just crank it, and a pump of gas before turning the key seems to flood it, so I tend to just give it 1/8 throttle and hold there until it catches (can take 5-10 seconds), then maintain 1.5-2k manually for a few seconds, then it's good to go.

 

Did you set best lean idle by the Redline Weber instructions after changing idle jets?

How did you set timing?

How did you set point dwell?

 

Sounds like you still have the resistor wire in place. The blue coil has an internal resistor and should be fed 12v. You should bypass/remove the resistor wire to get 12v to the blue coil, or change the coil for one designed to work with a resistor. 

 

 

[Buckeye]

+1 what bento said.

Your timing and distributor is out of adjustment. Shouldn't have to rotate the distributor to get car started. Firework is sign of engine timing issue. point gap should be 0.016", but more important than that is dwell angle. Dwell range spec is 59-64 deg and you want it to be to the lower end of the range. You increase dwell by tighter/less breaker gap point. 

[Boultman]

The timing was set correctly with a light, before i tore it down.  I only changed timing as a last resort, and by advancing it slightly, i can actually get it to start.  But then runs terrible because the timing is off.  If i back it my original mark, it dies.  

 

Maybe the weak spark is my issue with the resisted coil?  It may be a two part problem where i'm getting too much gas and flood, and the extra gas is making it even harder for the weak spark to kick-off.  When i over-advance timing, it is some-how over-coming the weak spark and getting it to fire at least...  

 

I'm just confused to why i can't get it back to where it was.  at least i could drive it, as long as i didn't shut it down....

 

It sounds like i should start by making a jumper wire to by-pass the resisted wire.  From where to where would i hook it up? 

 

thanks.

[bento]

Am I reading your original post right and all the stuff you listed as 'replaced' was done after the problem got really bad, but made no difference?

 

How did you set your point gap? Did you reset timing after changing points? Changing dwell will affect timing, so you should be setting dwell first, and then timing. While you're setting timing, how stable is the timing mark? Does it bounce around?

 

If it was a black coil you replaced with the blue coil, you can try swapping it back in rather than rewiring. The resistor wire is there to provide the right voltage for the black coil. But I'm with Buckeye that your attention should be on the distributor for now. Once you're back on the road, you can research black vs blue coil and decide which way you want to go long term. The blue coil isn't necessarily an upgrade.

[Stevenc22]

Choke isnt opening. Check choke tension

[jrhone]

my car did something similar...ran great...then just died one day.  wouldn't start. towed it back home.  looked at everything, could find nothing wrong.  then it just started.  for no reason.  in the end it was the carb.  I was leaking fuel from the accelerator pump.  once i swapped the carb it was all good.  

[Boultman]

Update.  I bought another Bosch condenser, thinking i may have received a bad one when i replaced all the ignition bits.  (this happened a few months ago on my fathers Citroen DS, received a bad one).  This seems unnervingly common...

 

Though, this did not help the situation.   HOWEVER.  Thinking I may have a coil issue, resisted vs non, etc., I made a jumper wire from the positive post of the new Blue coil, to the positive terminal on the starter (batt is in the truck, so this is closer). 

 

It fired-up almost right away.  The idle was $h$% because of all the "adjusting" i've been doing trying to get it to fire and run, and fire-up again.  But i think i have found the main issue.  

 

I bought the blue Beru coil from Pelican, but here is link to another page that is more descriptive of the coil.

http://www.hot-spark.com/1-Beru-ZS-172.htm

 

The timing issues i described above make a little sense.  when i advanced the timing enough (trying everything to diag and get it started), it would eventually fire.  I assume the engine needs less spark when the timing is advanced so much... This points to weak coil power as well.  

 

I think i need to purchase a non-resisted coil (please let me know what PN this would be), or run new non-resisted wiring from the coil to....?  

 

thanks,

 

[Boultman]

So after reading this.  i believe i need to change my Blue Coil to the Black Coil, as there is too much resistance and weak spark.  but only really noticed during start-up (or lack thereof). 

 

"

Posted 27 Apr 2015 (edited) · Report post

Here's my understanding of when you need a ballast resistor:

Early cars (roundie) need a ballast resistor if you're using a Bosch red or black coil. If you're using a blue coil, you don't because the blue coil has sufficient internal resistance. The black coil needs about a 0.9 ohm resistor while the red coil needs about a 1.8 ohm resistor.

Later cars (not sure exactly what year this began) have a resistor wire that is covered in clearish plastic from the #12 fuse to the coil. This wire has a built-in resistance of about 0.9 ohm. Since the black coil needs about 0.9 ohm resistance, you don't need a ballast resistor. The red, however, needs 1.8 ohm resistance, so the ballast resistor needs to be 0.9 ohm (0.9+0.9 resistor wire=1.8 ohm total resistance). It's my understanding that blue coils are not ideal since you add their internal resistance to the 0.9 ohm resistor wire in the later cars. Too much resistance means it makes a weaker spark which can lead to harder starts.

And yes, I believe without the proper resistance you can prematurely wear out points/other ignition parts. I have a feeling not having a ballast resistor on my car contributed to this over time.

Experts out there, is this summary correct? Please chime in.

What kind of coil do you have? If you have a later model year car, do you have the built-in resistor wire?

Edited 27 Apr 2015 by grotflo"

Maybe after the black coil installation i won't have any starting issues, and the car may actually run better with more spark? 

Anyone know the PN and exact Bosch Black Coil they recommend?

 

thanks again. 

 

[Stevenc22]

Few things.

 

1) If you have a 1975, you probably have the resistance wire which means if you want to run a blue coil, you need to remove the resistance wire. (Easy to do). other wise change back to a black coil.

 

2) In your initial post you aid the car always started with a cold engine but had problems starting with a hot engine. That does not sound like a coil/resistance problem to me. Cold engine are harder to start with weak spark, yet yours starts with a cold engine. I suspect your choke it set incorrectly. You never mentioned whether you checked if your choke tension was right or not. THe choke is supposed to open when the engine gets hot, but if it is set wrong, the chock wont open and a hot car wont start with a closed chock.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Stevenc22

[Boultman]

Do you have a link or PN for a black, non-resisted coil that you recommend?  Sometimes the descriptions are pretty vague, and doesn't really mention if it has internal resistance or not.. 

 

Here is the catch, i'm 90% sure there was a blue coil in the car when i got it.  it was older and dirty, but had a blue tint.  I tossed it right away (i won't do that again..), but i think it was always over-resisted.  I noticed no difference when i swapped the old coil for this new blue one.  I believe i'm starting to have small internal carb issues that may be leading to flooding or too-rich situations, which exacerbates the weak spark issue.  

 

I didn't mention the choke.  It always has opened all the way when warm.  A lot of the times it wouldn't start, i would have the filter off of it and could see the choke opening correctly and staying that way.  Since i live in Coastal Houston, i adjusted it slightly so that it opens faster, and doesn't quick close all the way.  Especially with Summer arriving in about 2 weeks here.  

 

i'll purchase a black coil once i know which one.  i'm pretty confident that my problem will be solved.  

[Buckeye]

Old Bosch Number ---> New Bosch Number -- Use Ballast Resistor x.x

 

0 221 119 016 ---> 0 221 119 021 --- 0.9 ohm ( old ones were painted black )

 

0 221 119 050 ---> 0 221 119 030 --- 1.8 ohm ( old ones were painted red )

0 221 119 015 ---> 0 221 119 030 --- 1.8 ohm ( old ones were painted black)

 

 

[Stevenc22]

Dude, im in Houston too. If the black coil doesnt solve the problem, swing by and ill help you trouble shoot.

 

If you think the car came with a blue coil originally, there is a chance your resistance wire has been removed. BEFORE you install a black coil, you will need to measure resistance of the wire to make sure the resistance wire is still installed.

 

Steven

Edited April 11, 2016 by Stevenc22

[Boultman]

I"ll measure the wire before i purchase the black coil.  I'm pretty sure this will solve my problem.  

If not, the lead that goes from the ignition to the relay that triggers full (non resisted) power to the coil may be acting up or not working.  When i by-passed everything with a jumper wire (positive terminal of starter to Positive coil), it triggers a relay on the passenger fender area in the engine bay.  then when i turn ignition to start, it fires right away.  when i shut the key off, it continues to run, of course, until i pull the jumper off.  

 

for one reason or another, i'm not getting all the spark i need from coil.  either coil is too resisted, or a lead is broken somewhere...  I'm digging through some old photos, and i think i have one of my engine-bay with a black coil... hard to tell.  

but it is also the easiest thing to test as well.   

 

Next question.  where in the hell are people purchasing Bosch Coil PN:  0 221 119 021   ?   i assumed 50 sites would pop up on google.  not the case...

[Buckeye]

43 minutes ago, Boultman said:

Next question.  where in the hell are people purchasing Bosch Coil PN:  0 221 119 021   ?   i assumed 50 sites would pop up on google.  not the case...

here is one place

http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/00010

 

Give BluntTech a call. He can get you that

Here is another one:

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/ignition-coil-00010