Head gasket question

[Inka’d02]

So I built a new motor in late August. It has probably has 1 hour of run time on it and has been brought up to temp a couple of times. I think I have to retorque the head; correct? Does anybody know the procedure for retorquing the head?

Thanks,

Andrew

[oldguy]

Different head gasket manufacturers may or may not require a retorque

It's not hard to do one but if it helps you sleep at night, doit

[Guest Anonymous]

So I built a new motor in late August. It has probably has 1 hour of run time on it and has been brought up to temp a couple of times. I think I have to retorque the head; correct? Does anybody know the procedure for retorquing the head?

Thanks,

Andrew

For a question this common, you should look through the older posts for additional information. Had you done so, you might have noticed that recommended cylinder head gasket replacement procedure has changed. There is nothing wrong with the procedure you are attempting to implement, but conventional wisdom suggests there is a better process.

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,57/page,viewtopic/t,339321/

If you wish to retorque your headbolts, you could try backing off each bolt and then re-tightening each one to the final torque setting. Needless to say, you should follow the original crisscross tightening order provided by the engine manufacturer, or the gasket manufacturer. (they should be the same and that information should be available at the link.)

Good luck.

[oldguy]

So I built a new motor in late August. It has probably has 1 hour of run time on it and has been brought up to temp a couple of times. I think I have to retorque the head; correct? Does anybody know the procedure for retorquing the head?

Thanks,

Andrew

For a question this common, you should look through the older posts for additional information. Had you done so, you might have noticed that recommended cylinder head gasket replacement procedure has changed. There is nothing wrong with the procedure you are attempting to implement, but conventional wisdom suggests there is a better process.

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,57/page,viewtopic/t,339321/

If you wish to retorque your headbolts, you could try backing off each bolt and then re-tightening each one to the final torque setting. Needless to say, you should follow the original crisscross tightening order provided by the engine manufacturer, or the gasket manufacturer. (they should be the same and that information should be available at the link.)

Good luck.

If he was using updated cylinder head bolts and a BMW factory gasket that whole mess would be applicable. It's really making a mountain out of a mole hill. These motors are dead pan simple. Torque it and go. This whole 15 min wait thing between torques.. Sure

[Guest Anonymous]

If he was using updated cylinder head bolts and a BMW factory gasket that whole mess would be applicable. It's really making a mountain out of a mole hill. These motors are dead pan simple. Torque it and go. This whole 15 min wait thing between torques.. Sure

I think you missed Hurtebise's point. No one is disputing that the engines are simple - which is why even those short on experience but long on "rah-rah" can get them to function. In this case, the head is installed, and I don't see where H suggested that the poster redo his work. He did emphasize the virtue of reading through the archives, and that alternative methods exist. H even stated that there was nothing wrong with the older practice. The poster's concern was re-torquing procedure - which was part of the traditional "torque and go method."

I respectfully take issue with your statement that new head bolts need to be used to take advantage of the revised (circa 1985!) recommended angle-torque procedure. They don't, and even CD's chronically posted instructions do not say anything to the contrary - if you read them closely. The same is true about using new head gaskets - despite any re-labeling. Unless you have a lifetime supply of older pre-'85 gaskets, they will most likely be accompanied with the newer style instructions. And, whether it's a marketing ploy or not, older gaskets have a tendency to degrade unless they are left alone on the shelf, something over which few of us have any control. So using newer gaskets is probably a good idea too.

I have assembled many different engines using both methods and cannot recall ever having an installation failure. The fact is, you could probably get away with not using a torque wrench at all to reinstall the head, or use a wrench that is wildly out of calibration - but it would be a foolish practice. The 1985 revised procedure is simply more accurate that the "'ol torque and go procedure" you and I, and so many others are used to. Thousands of engines were successfully built without the newer recommend procedure and it will no doubt continue to be used. But I would wager that thousands more will benefit from the newer procedure. While maybe not 100% necessary, the revised procedure provides a slight amount of increased peace of mind, and that may be enough of an incentive if you are looking for repeat business or added reliability.

Conventional wisdom seems to favor the torque angle method, but there are plenty of ways to skin the same cat. Different strokes . . .?

[TobyB]

After I went to the angle torque method, I noticed that I got better,

more consistent cylinder- to- cylinder sealing than I did with 58 ft- lbs.

I also developed a feel for how tight they want to be.

It's significantly more than 58 ft- lbs, and you can FEEL the gasket stop

compressing.

I have installed perhaps 25 M10 head gaskets in the last 6 years.

Yes, racing can be expensive.

Yeah, if you pulled it to 58 ft- lbs, set your torque wrench to 65 and

retorque in the 'inside to outside' order. You may find the middle ones

looser than you'd expect.

If you used the angle method, don't do it.

On an M20 and an M42, it's a different ball of wax.

t

[Inka’d02]

I torqued them to 56 ft*lbs. Do I re-torque them with the motor cold? Also do I just continue to 65 ft*lbs or do I loosen each one and re -torque to 65 ft*lbs?

I should also mention that the gasket brand was Goetze (seemed to be prefered over Victor Rienz), and it was the thicker version (1.8mm I think).

I also have a very slight oil weep from the front edge of the gasket on the carb side which I hope a re-torque will address.

Thanks,

Andrew

[Guest Anonymous]

I torqued them to 56 ft*lbs. Do I re-torque them with the motor cold? Also do I just continue to 65 ft*lbs or do I loosen each one and re -torque to 65 ft*lbs?

I should also mention that the gasket brand was Goetze (seemed to be prefered over Victor Rienz), and it was the thicker version (1.8mm I think).

I also have a very slight oil weep from the front edge of the gasket on the carb side which I hope a re-torque will address.

Thanks,

Andrew

I can't speak to Toby's 65 ft/lb suggestion. My torque wrenches may be calibrated differently than his. We may also use slightly different bolt oiling procedure (very lightly oiled and I tend to use ARP's products if available) Doubt the extra few ft/lbs. would do any harm, because there is a wide range before you reach any limits. However, you never really know how much is too much - until it's too late.

For re-torquing, unless dealing with a race/emergency situation, let the engine cool to less than 95 F. I believe that is the temperature guideline offered by the Haynes manual - which incidentally, also recommends a slight slackening of each bolt - following the usual crisscross pattern. IF you don't have one, get a manual or two or three, that will answer the vast majority of your questions - even if you are a seasoned mechanic/nonmechanic from Tejas.

[c.d.iesel]

read the last sentence

[Guest Anonymous]

read the last sentence

And ignore all of the text preceding it?

You are implying that no matter what procedure was followed, a final angle torque will make all things acceptable. If that is true, then all of the M10 engines assembled using the traditional "Oldguy" method, should be recalled immediately and given the torque angle treatment.

Per oldguy's musings, the M10 engine is very forgiving and YER suggestion will most probably work (as might 10 or 15 smaller torquing steps) but that is not what the revised procedure states. Surely all of those beginning and intermediate steps are related to the final step, otherwise why go to the effort of including them? The last sentence is clear as it pertains to the entire revised procedure supplanting the earlier recommendations. It is ambiguous as to other hybrid mix-and-match methodology. Do you think the factory would honor its warranty for a head gasket failure, if it had proof that the first few steps were ignored?

BTW, CD, there is no disrespect intended by this post. You are to be complemented for your postings. They are very much appreciated. Only downside is that a few "registered members" rarely go further than your posts on any given subject and ignore the factory manual and related archives.

BTW #2, I have used the revised procedure on several engines without issues. Nevertheless, I also have three engines that are still doing fine that were rebuilt - in the early '80s using that "disapproved" method. One assumes the factory used the very method it now frowns on for how many engines? (Shhhhhh. It will be our secret.)

[c.d.iesel]

to Andrew - Inka’d02 in CT

if you originally installed the head using the method

above in the BMW Bulletin : 65NM, wait 15 min., +33 degrees,

warmup for 25 min. , final +25 degrees - then no need to re-torque

the head bolts.

but you used the 58 lb.ft. method

I would now loosen the head bolts one at a time, and retighten

each one before loosening the next - and torque to 58 ft.lb..

recheck your valve clearance COLD before you put the cover back on.

Enjoy Spring Time in Connecticut!

[oldguy]

After I went to the angle torque method, I noticed that I got better,

more consistent cylinder- to- cylinder sealing than I did with 58 ft- lbs.

I also developed a feel for how tight they want to be.

It's significantly more than 58 ft- lbs, and you can FEEL the gasket stop

compressing.

I have installed perhaps 25 M10 head gaskets in the last 6 years.

Yes, racing can be expensive.

Yeah, if you pulled it to 58 ft- lbs, set your torque wrench to 65 and

retorque in the 'inside to outside' order. You may find the middle ones

looser than you'd expect.

If you used the angle method, don't do it.

On an M20 and an M42, it's a different ball of wax.

t

The feel is more important than most anything mentioned. You can actually torque them to 75 or more when compressing different types of head gaskets but you'll start to see the bosses in the head "flex" inward and the bracing from the edge of the cylinder head to the boss start to neck.

Grey hair. A Haynes manual said so? Really.......