5-speed install poor shifting - need opinion

[winstontj]

I posted a while back that post 5-speed install I need to depress the clutch pedal in all the way to the floor to get good engagement. Peteinjp suggested putting a weld bead on the arm between the TO bearing to take up some space - others suggested adjustment, bleed the system and more.

This is the part where I need your input. I've come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong with the system. Brake fluid is fine. Clear, no air, no dirt, new, etc. As I start thinking about lightening a flywheel and my new build I want to get rid of this problem. This morning I remembered a post about a shim that was provided post flywheel resurfaceing. I believe it was to be placed between the flywheel and the crank? to take up the space that was machined off to resurface. I also remembered that I switched from a 215mm to a 228mm flywheel/clutch when I swapped motors - because I had a new clutch, PP & TO bearing.

So with what I know now... is it possible that my only problem is that I've created a frankinstein of parts and that I'm not put together properly? Meaning should there possibly be a shim between the flywheel and the crank? This would push the pp/clutch into the TO bearing/arm taking up more space - engaging the clutch sooner. Is there a way I can measure the distance between the crank mating surface and the clutch mating surface of the flywheel so I'll know how much space I'll need to take up?

Does this sound logical? I feel like by switching over to the 228mm flywheel I may have created this problem not knowing.

Also for my next motor - would it be better to shim between the crank & flywheel (that idea sounds scary to me) or be better to either adjust the cylinder ratios in the hydraulic system, or take up the space on the arm/TO bearing side. I feel like spacing the flywheel out from the crank might be a bad idea.

Also & finally - does anyone know of a slightly smaller bore clutch slave cyl.??? If I can find something smaller (5-speed OD box) then I'll get a little more movement from the piston and better clutch action. (right)

Thanks for reading and thanks for the help.

TJW

[esty]

sorry mr winston...i can't help with your 5 speed but wanted to tell you i found a dash thing locally...so you don't have to worry about sending the one you have...

thank you very much

[jakeb]

What TO bearing are you using? I believe you need to use the 323 TO with the 5 speed swap. If you don't then you would need to add some welds to the points on the arm where the TO bearing rides.

When I did my swap I used the 323 bearing but someone before me (with the same trans) had put little welds on the arm to be able to use the standard 02 TO bearing.

HTH,

Jake

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a problem shifting from 4th to 5th on my C/R 5 speed too and have not been able to figure out the problem all other gears are fine

[mleach]

Winston,

Your "shim" wont solve your problem, the clutch is attached to the flywheel, not the block. Therefore, the relationship b/t the clutch and flywheel wont change if you change the distance between the flywheel and block.

The only way you can make the clutch engage sooner would be to modify the pressure plate so that it sat closer to the flywheel. You might be able to get a clutch shop to add another diaphram to increase the pressure as well. This would do two things, add thickness and pressure, while being fairly easy to operate.

EVen if you Frankensteined the assembly, there are few things to screw up, the only one I can think of is that the pressure plate assembly is too far from the flywheel surface.

You could machine the lip of the flywheel to bring the pressure plate "into" the flywheel, this would also decrease their relative distance, and make your flywheel disengage sooner.

Did you check how much play was on your clutch release arm, between the slave cylinder and the arm? If there is alot of play in that, your slave cylinder will have to move too much before it's doing any work, putting a severe kink in the system. I would start there, and at the adjustment in the master cylinder. They will tell you alot about what is actually going on.

-Matt

[BillWilliams]

on the edge?

[winstontj]

on the edge?

Yes the flywheel has the proper step machined. mleach to answer your reply - Thanks for the input! By changing the distance between the flywheel and the block (increasing it) all that does is move the flywheel assy. (fwheel, pp & clutch) all in the direction of the TO bearing / clutch arm. By moving the PP closer to the arm it would engage sooner - in my mind at least. By moving the PP away from the arm (closer to the block) the arm and TO bearing have to move extra distance before engaging. This extra distance even if it's a few mm's equals a certain amount of pedal travel and fluid. My thought was that maybe that little distance would mean a half inch higher of full clutch engagement at the pedal???

Make sense now? The only way to change the relationship between the PP, step and clutch is by changing the step - or by adding a thicker/thinner clutch - or by shaving down the mounting points of the PP. This would possibly add clamping force?? but with a stock clutch you have to be careful because there is little room for play built into the clutch.

Here's part of the problem which I just figured out... Think BavAuto will comp me for the labor on a TO bearing swap???

On their website they have listed both 223 366 and 204 525 for a 1981 323i. I'm using part # 21511223366 (which I think is for a 215mm clutch) because it also crossed over to a 1981 320is, for which I had already purchased a complete clutch kit. Because it was listed on both the 323i and the 320i I assumed that they were interchangable.

It appears that I have installed the wrong TO bearing - and therefore I should be lucky my car shifts at all!

Because I plan on switching over to a 215mm clutch in the near future should I still go ahead and order the 323i TO bearing or will the 223 366 part work with the new setup.

21511204525

21511223366

[mleach]

A too "thin" throw out bearing will cause excessive play or throw in the Clutch arm, if you can not adjust it out, adding a shim will solve this problem. You do not need to replace the bearing. You could also shim between the clutch arm and the slave cylinder to take up the slack between the TO and the PP.

[winstontj]

You could also shim between the clutch arm and the slave cylinder to take up the slack between the TO and the PP.

Any ideas as to how I could do this.

I've been looking at the diagrams and there dosen't seem to be a good way to shim the TO bearing release arm/slave cyl joint. If I can't just stick something in there to shim it then the only other option seems to be removal of the transmission - which I'm trying to avoid.

I will get in there and try to measure how much room/slop i need to take out. Ideas though?

TIA,

TJW

[BobBreed]

Are you sure that you are getting full travel of the slave? For example, look at the clutch pedal in relationship to the brake pedal. Is the clutch pedal equal in height off the floor as the brake pedal? If not, run out the adjustment on the clutch master until they are equal.

Bob

[winstontj]

Are you sure that you are getting full travel of the slave? For example, look at the clutch pedal in relationship to the brake pedal. Is the clutch pedal equal in height off the floor as the brake pedal? If not, run out the adjustment on the clutch master until they are equal.

Bob

bob funny you say that... im in the car as im reading your response and what do you know - there's a good two to three inches the clutch pedal could come up to be even with the brake pedal.

time to do that pedal box rebuild - and the floor pan so i can bolt it back in... and the rocker so i can weld the floor pan to something.... need i say rear quarters?

Thanks bob!

[JohnC]

Winston, you say you need to press the pedal to the floor to get good engagement. I believe you mean disengagement. If that's what you mean, I want to throw in my two cents. I had the same problem when I did my 5 speed conversion. I had the TO bearing rotated 90 degrees so it didn't seat properly in the fork! Stupid, stupid, stupid! No bid deal for me, because I installed a racing clutch, but I didn't like the effort required, so I had already decided to replace it with a stock clutch. I noticed the problem when I dropped the trans.

[BobBreed]

Glad to hear that is the problem..... don't ask me why I know about the solution!!!! Actually, you can entend the rod by working through the access hole underneath the pedal box.

Bob