Upgrading my 1502?

[Oldtimerfahrer]

15 minutes ago, Simeon said:

 

While you are no doubt correct, don't forget that sidedrafts can be tuned on smaller engines than 1600. Think of small Datsuns, FIATs and Alfas. 

 

Whether it it is worth it or not is a different question to whether or not DCOEs are flexible enough to be tuned for any engine. 

Its not about the displacement or flexibility really, even a 1.3 Alfa engine profits from dual side drafts...but those engines will have a compression ratio STARTING with 9 and ending typically around 10.25:1. The low compression engine just won't move enough air or take advantage of the additional fuel you are dumping in. Its perfect for a low torque, low horsepower and very tractable solution. An NSU TTS has only a 1-litre engine, but by raising the compression to 10.5 and adding said sidedrafts, a hotter cam you can get 90hp out of it (stock was 40hp, the TTS with slightly higher compression, different carbs, different cam but no dual sidedraft had 70hp). 90hp is very agressive, so its essentially in race trim, but the 70HP version was a street car. If you take a stock 2-litre BMW engine and bolt on dual side drafts you don't get 120hp, like a TI, for the same reason even with the same cam. If you took a 2002 turbo motor and bolted on dual side drafts and did a turbo delete you probably would also have 70hp.

 

In my humble opinion, if you take a step back and look at the cost of 4 pistons to raise the compression to 10:1 together with a good downdraft, vs. investing in manifolds, linkages, carbs and all the goodies needed to bolt and tune the dual webers (doesn't matter what size), the former solution will provide more horsepower, better driveability and better fuel economy for a lower investment. It is more intrusive to replace the pistons, but if you just bolt the DCOEs on this engine it really is visual tuning at a high cost. As others have pointed out, its not a slow car to begin with and upgrading the brakes (at least to dual line and 2-litre dimensions) and suspension (at least good shocks and sway bars) would be better investments in the short run and kind of mandatory sooner or later. The 1602 and 1802 engines drive quite differently than the 2 litre, I have never driven a 1502 but it can't be much different. From sound and driving characteristics the 1802 I find the nicest, even if it has less hp than the 2 litre.

Regards,

Andrew

[NickVyse]

spot on Andrew. Although you could also argue that without the power the 1502 brakes are just fine also. I spank my stock 1600-2 in the mountains and have never had brake fade (on the road), and that has the early single piston set-up. 

 

Never experienced a decent 1800 m10, sounds like I need to. 

 

Nick

[Oldtimerfahrer]

28 minutes ago, NickVyse said:

spot on Andrew. Although you could also argue that without the power the 1502 brakes are just fine also. I spank my stock 1600-2 in the mountains and have never had brake fade (on the road), and that has the early single piston set-up. 

 

Never experienced a decent 1800 m10, sounds like I need to. 

 

Nick

From the catalog, the 1602 at least had a different brake setup to the 1502, the 1602 having the same master cylinder as the bigger brothers and has a dual circuit system from the brake master even if the calipers are smaller and have one or two cylinders per caliper side. The 1502 has a single circuit, one line coming to each front wheel from the master cylinder (i.e. no failover) and a pressure regulator valve. At least at W & N the parts to fix a 1502 are MORE expensive because it has a pressure regulator and other items and even the master is more expensive. Only the brake lines / flex line and caliper are cheaper. I thought the 1600-2 brakes are the same as early 2002 brakes, Its a dual line to the caliper but within the caliper it only has one cylinder on each side. If you are running a 1502, you have to be more cognizant of the quality of your brake lines as a leak = total failure.

Andrew

[NickVyse]

17 minutes ago, Oldtimerfahrer said:

From the catalog, the 1602 at least had a different brake setup to the 1502, the 1602 having the same master cylinder as the bigger brothers and has a dual circuit system from the brake master even if the calipers are smaller and have one or two cylinders per caliper side. The 1502 has a single circuit, one line coming to each front wheel from the master cylinder (i.e. no failover) and a pressure regulator valve. At least at W & N the parts to fix a 1502 are MORE expensive because it has a pressure regulator and other items and even the master is more expensive. Only the brake lines / flex line and caliper are cheaper. I thought the 1600-2 brakes are the same as early 2002 brakes, Its a dual line to the caliper but within the caliper it only has one cylinder on each side. If you are running a 1502, you have to be more cognizant of the quality of your brake lines as a leak = total failure.

Andrew

 

My '67 has a single line circuit Andrew, and a small separate servo. This servo was an option on the '66 cars. It actually has a lovely feel to it, much nicer than the over servoed nature of later set ups. And there's always the fail safe of the hand brake :-) 

 

But we digress from the topic..

 

[APka]

13 hours ago, Oldtimerfahrer said:

Quite true, the 1502 had a single line brake system, so many of the components are not interchangeable and it has additional components (balancer or pressure failure switch) to partly compensate for the single line brakes. It has 8:1 compression to run on low octane fuel (I guess that was 87 octane at the time) which was achieved with flat top pistons and jetting the carb differently. It is essentially a 1602 engine so replacing the pistons would be a good start. It was a budget version so a lot of chrome is deleted, some of the trim is painted black, the front quarter glass is fixed, has 4-inch rims as stock and cheaper seats. Dual webers of any sort, with any venturis (chokes) will be "overkill" for a 1502 engine. Downdraft will breath more than amply enough. I have never considered dual carbs as a visual tuning accessory, but they would be on a stock 1502 engine.

 

Regards,

Andrew

What front quarter glass are you talking of? The ones that are opened with the round knob? 

[NickVyse]

11 hours ago, APka said:

What front quarter glass are you talking of? The ones that are opened with the round knob? 

 

yep, stock on a 1502 these were fixed and matt black - the chromed opening version was available as an option though. 

 

[Henning]

On 24.3.2017 at 2:38 AM, TobyB said:

Hen, was that true of the late 1502?  The early 1500/1602 and 1968 2002, yes, but did it persist through to the end?

RealOEM shows a 4- pot, but sometimes the pictures do not exactly match the parts...

 

Things I do not know.

 

t

 

 

Well...

 

What I can say is that the 1600/1602 rear brakes have smaller 200mm drums and the bigger 17,46mm cylinders through to the end.

2002 rear brakes have bigger 230mm drums and the smaller 15,87mm cylinders through to the end.

(ti/tiis have the bigger 230mm drums and the bigger 17,46mm cylinders. turbos are still different.)

Concerning the front brakes the first 1600-2s have 2-piston calipers in a simple single circuit system. If one cylinder fails the entire system fails. This was changed to a double circuit system in 68 (I think).

2002s have this double circuit from (not sure) 68 to the end, and so have all 1602s and 1802s, too.

1502 have bigger 230mm drums and smaller 15,87mm cylinders like 2002s, yes. They have 2-piston calipers on the front in a double circuit, but one circuit covers the front brakes and the other the rear. I can imagine that the early 1600 and the 1502 calipers are interchangeable but I don't know. On 1802 and 2002 systems one circuit covers all 4 wheels and the other just the front.

 

Hope this doesn't confuse too much...

 

hen

 

[APka]

1 hour ago, NickVyse said:

 

yep, stock on a 1502 these were fixed and matt black - the chromed opening version was available as an option though. 

 

From what I have been told by my grandfather, he bought his car "off the stand" at a car show back in 1976, with a few extra options, such as these opening windows... I guess I got lucky on tha one ! But I will have to look into the rest .. 

[APka]

On 22/03/2017 at 10:57 PM, NickVyse said:

 

chassis/vin, same thing. email it here for build date and info: BMW <info.grouparchiv@bmwgroup.com>

 

I received a response from them ! 

 

Thank you for your email.

The BMW 1502 rhd VIN 3810728 was manufactured on September 17th, 1976 and delivered on September 28th, 1976 to the UK. The original colour was Polaris metallic, paint code 060.

BMW built 72.632 unit of the BMW 1502 (in total): 71.810 LHD and 822 RHD models. 

The data on still registered cars has the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (Federal Motor Vehicle Transport Authority) for Germany and its equivalent for every country. We would recommend to contact the club scene (for example http://www.bmw-02-club.de/). The clubs often have registers and collect information on the cars that are still on the road.

We hope this information is helpful for you.

Yours sincerely,

Julia Oberndörfer

 

 

822 RHD 1502's made.. that's pretty cool to know !

[Simeon]

You even get your own email (pretty sure everyone else gets a template) to get you to contact a club.  That's pretty rare, probably down to double figures left running.

 

Probably need to start thinking again about keeping it stock. It should probably be in a museum but unfortunately it isn't one of the sexier models so probably never will end up saved. 

[NickVyse]

11 minutes ago, APka said:

 

I received a response from them ! 

 

Thank you for your email.

The BMW 1502 rhd VIN 3810728 was manufactured on September 17th, 1976 and delivered on September 28th, 1976 to the UK. The original colour was Polaris metallic, paint code 060.

BMW built 72.632 unit of the BMW 1502 (in total): 71.810 LHD and 822 RHD models. 

The data on still registered cars has the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (Federal Motor Vehicle Transport Authority) for Germany and its equivalent for every country. We would recommend to contact the club scene (for example http://www.bmw-02-club.de/). The clubs often have registers and collect information on the cars that are still on the road.

We hope this information is helpful for you.

Yours sincerely,

Julia Oberndörfer

 

 

822 RHD 1502's made.. that's pretty cool to know !

 

I'm pretty sure that makes it the 728th RHD 1502 made - so only 94 cars were made after yours, and not many have survived, so as I said before, it's quite feasibly the oldest RHD 1502 left on the road. Put a new post on the uk forum and see if anyone there has a newer one. 

 

1502s have been the 02 underdog for quite a while, but I think they have a historical interest and therefore value. And their paired back trim appeals to me and no doubt others. 

 

Shines a different light on keeping her original eh? 

 

Nick

[APka]

I think that keeping her original may be an option... But I would've loved to slightly modify it to make it a bit more enjoyable to drive.. a freshen up.. argh I'm so torn :/

[NickVyse]

Used engines are still fairly cheap in the UK, especially for a 1600. Find one with more compression (I think the e21s all had 9.5:1), put a cam in and sidedrafts, or just a twin choke weber, and put the original engine aside. An 1800 from an e21 would be a great candidate - cheap, plentiful, 9.5:1 and the same short throw crank and high revving character. 

 

Or do what you like, it's your car now! 

[NickVyse]

Just had a quick look - you'd need a post 1980 (facelift) 318 engine as the early e21 had low compression duffers. Not sure about the 1800 in an e30.