engine and drivetrain Rally Car Transmission

[tomorrowcalling]

Sierra (Ford type 9) with a Quaffe kit.

I've got the box in - just need to sell my first born for the Quaffe kit

beeuark !! why did you chose that box ?

its the same box as in a XR4TI and is a true piece of sh*t !

you were a hair close to put a borg warner T5 man...that would be the ultimate trany.

I am wondering if it fits on the bell housing of the T9 "hummer" type trany.

this trany dates back from the early 60's and was a 4speed initialy, the 5th one was added later.

you cant shift fast with this one like the original 02 box for sure.

btw i have one in one of my shed...

I agree that the Type 9 in stock form is not as nice to shift as the Getrag but the whole point of exercise was to change ratios.

When I last priced a set of ratios for the type 9 , it was around NZ$2000 from the local quaffe agent. (they also turn up 2nd hand locally).

I've never seen a close ratio getrag box for sale locally - although I was chatting to a fellow 2002 racer on the weekend who said he just saw a dogleg box go for 3500 Euro on German ebay.

I've also looked at a mechanic mechanic close ratio box at current exchange rates it was NZ$5300 plus freight & taxes.

So the type 9 was cheap to install, will be relatively cheap to modify, there are lots of ratio options and there are a lot of people locally who have worked on them.

See http://www.quaife.co.uk/Ford-Sierra-Type-9-Clubman-5-speed-synchromesh-gearkit

[PatAllen]

I havnt changed it, its just that its a 4 speed and would quite like to be able to use 1st gear more effectively such as dropping 2nd to 1st into tight corners and handbrake situations. I dont want to spend 'loads' of money on it but was hoping to get every ones opinion. Are the ford gear boxes easily compatible as I imagine parts will be easier to find for them. Jason

this is not likely to happen with a stock T9, ie, to drop the 2dn to 1st while the car is in motion.

you will break the shifter lever before it happens !!

ive driven tons of other car brands and to me the only cars that i can do this is in my E36 and my 2002 !! (i dont mention my 318is, i can drop from 4th to 1st when i thought id put in in 3rd)...

lol...different tastes for everyones...

[punchesdfw]

that box seems like a good option, i know of one for a start. This quaife kit? What does it include? Is there any other complications? Jason

the original 2002 transmission is much better in my opinion, why did you changed it initialy ?

Why?

why what, i am asking why you spend all that effort to put that transmission.

And if you ask me why i say that the 2002 transmission is better, well, ive driven 3 different XR4TI, and one especialy with very low mileage so it was supposed to feel right. I had driven 2x 2002, 2x 320i, one e30 and one e36 on regular basis since 1995.

The XR's never ever shifted as smooth and rapidly as the getrag's or zf's. Even compared to a 2002 with all loose bushings and rubber, the XR always felt like if it were broken.

They wear also very fast if you abuse them at all. Ford suggest some nasty fluid that they sell to put in, which is some sort of synthetic ATF fluid.

Then if the issue is gear ratios then its probably a good transmission just for that, but id spend instead more time and effort to put a WC T5 instead, which i did a swap years ago into one of my XR because of you know what now.

No comparision possible.

did you ever drive a car with the T9 ?? i mean a stock T9, of course if all the synchros are changed and with straight gears,...then its different, but initialy it is a very weak and slow transmission.

Pat,

I agree, the stock T9 is a turd. I thought you were talking about the Quaife Sequential unit, which shifts like butter. The Quaife box is not the Ford box. In fact, the only part the Quaife box has in common with the Ford unit is the steel maincase. The alloy box has no parts in common. It was simply used as a basic design because it was compact and fit many bellhousings.

Quaife does manufacture a retrofit kit for both Rocket & Sierra boxes to replace the layshaft, mainshaft, needle bearings, gears, dog-rings, shifter and top cover. I have shifted those and they work pretty well.

[JasonBird]

so for tarmac rallying do you think the 4 speed box will cut it? Jason

[punchesdfw]

Jason, it really depends on the speeds that you will be running, your horsepower, torque, rpm drops and other parameters. Do you want an "on track" first gear or do you want a "pit gear?" You might very well be able to use a 4-speed.

[JasonBird]

This thing is going to be driven around in between stages and has to sit in ques of traffic. Its gonna have to pull away high revs on the wet tarmac like all the AWD cars. Lets say 140 bhp and a 110mph max. No need for any more. My initial thoughts were for an over drive on the road between stages. Jason

[CamB]

Gee team - we are overthinking this one.

If you have a 4 speed and find yourself wanting to drop into first, with a 3.64 diff (if that's what you have), and you want to keep the cost down, it seems to me that an overdrive box with a short diff (like the 4.44 or a 4.27 - I use the latter) would be good enough.

It makes first gear uselessly short (except for starting off), but second gear becomes pretty useful for all except handbrake turn type situations.

The 4 cylinder e21 5 speeds work, and so does the later e30 5 speed, although it doesn't have a speedo drive. Supposedly it is weak - ask me once my car is up and racing with the turbo, as I will find out then.

At the next level of expense, whether the Ford box shifts well or not, if you think about it you will realise that tomorrowcalling's plan is a significantly more cost effective way of getting custom gear ratios than any other option.

[JasonBird]

Yeah, thats perfect. Are they easy to get a hold of now? Do the bolt on with the same pattern as the original and are they the same length. (Will I have to shorten the drive shaft?)

If I can find one im a quickshift kit, new diff and a bit of work away from my answer!

Jason

[TobyB]

Yes, the lowest- budget way to tighten the ratios

is to put in the 320 5- speed and a 4.44 diff.

The gears are in the early- 90's E36 318 auto convertibles,

and the last one I got on Ebay was less than $200 shipped.

It doesn't fix the 2-3 gap, but it does move it down a lot, so

it happens in a lower- load situation...

Other transmissions can be adapted, but as I'm finding, take a lot of work.

since we seem to have made it all the way 'round:

it's just the 80- 82 5- speed (easy to find),

a custom driveshaft, and a rebuild of your diff to put the 4.44 in.

What you end up with is a car that will top out at 125 (just like a 4- speed

with a 3.64 diff) and 2nd, 3rd and 4th fall somewhere in- between.

2nd is now useful as a first racing gear, 3rd and 4th are 'close- ratio'

jumps, and 5thi is good for transits and for a wide- open straight gear.

What everyone has to do before they just weld in a box is determine HOW the

car's going to be used and what ratios it NEEDS. For rally, it's empirical-

take your engine hp and torque curves, run them through the gears, and make

sure you don't drop off the peaks after a shift, especially in higher gears.

(this is where the stock box fails- 2nd to 3rd is too big a gap, especially

when the engine's been built with a narrower torque band)

For circuits, it's a little harder in that you have to look at your corner exit

speeds and gear choices (this is why I started down this silly path)

since again, starting off in the bottom of the stock 3rd gear is

death to acceleration.

The t5 is a fantastic choice IF you can modify your tunnel. There are

multitudes of gearsets, custom gearsets, custom parts out the ears,

blah blah blah. And a WC t5 has surprisingly little internal friction.

But the sonofabitch weighs 95 lbs to the stock 45 lbs...

(yes the diff on a 2002 weighs more than the trans...)

The Muncie M21 has great ratios for racing- and is also a porker...

If I was made of money, I'd buy one of Doug's Taylor boxes in a heartbeat.

I might even buy 2 or 3 with different ratios just so I wouldn't have

to open the boxes to change ratios for different tracks.

But I'm not...

ok, I'm done...

t

[JK]

Well said Toby.

Doug, I'm glad you read this forum, because now I know you can help me in the future with my 02 for a trick clutch, throw-out, gearbox setup. I used to use you guys for my Staffs gearbox on an S2....fantastic work and great service. Loved the SPEED segment during the spec miata nationals..great advertising huh?! Do you have an off-the-shelf M10-S14 bellhousing for your boxes or is it custom fab?

Now, Toby, since you seem to have it all figured out and my car is not yet turning a wheel, If you had the choice of 4 spd or 5 spd sitting in your garage (like I do), and you wanted to build the most versatile rear end for track (not Rally sorry) use with a 180-200hp 8000rpm motor, what stock box and rear ratio has worked best for you?

Okay I just read your response again. 5spd and 4:45 right?

[TobyB]

If you really can spin 8k and not fall way off the curve, yeah,

the 4.44 would be fine.

But there's nothing wrong with having a 4.27 as an option, either.

Saves wear and tear on the straights

(if you really make 200 hp, you'll top out over 130mph- with 150 at the

wheels, I see 125, which is 7200 in 4th with a 3.9)

The real bummer is that we don't really have anything taller than a 4.44-

a 4.56 or 4.7 would be nice for shorter tracks with the OD 5...

t

[CamB]

As a different reference point, I have not much over 100hp to the wheels and I run out of back straight at about 112mph with a 4.27 and about 5500rpm.... it's a genuine speed too - I have a rally trip meter that is accurate.

[tomorrowcalling]

I've now done several hillclimbs, some bentsprints and a rally sprint with the Type 9 box. At the moment it's still running stock internals as by request for funding for Quaffe parts has been denied (Silly little things like mortgages).

Is it the best stiffing box I've ever used ?. No - but it's better than the nearly 40 year old Getrag I was using.

Also second gear is slightly taller than the getrag 1.97 versus 2.02 and third is slightly lower 1.37 versus 1.32. Not huge differences I grant you but it does seem to make a difference.

Overall I'm happy with it.

Here are some fitment notes for anyone who's interested

For any one else considering a non BMW gearbox swap, the trick seems to be to start with an automatic bell housing.

I used one from a M10 powered E30 318 and then machined up an adapter plate to go between the bell housing and g'box.

In my case the throw out bearing is a Sierra one, using a modified Sierra clutch fork and E30 slave cylinder. The slave cylinder setup is similar to an E30 although in hindsight it would have been easier but more expensive to use an axial slave cylinder / bearing.

The clutch is a custom 228mm, there's a company in Auckland that can provide you anything you want in terms of diameter and center spline in 24 hours for not too much more than a stock clutch.

The drive shaft is a modified E30 one using a sierra coupling which is somewhat larger than a 2002 one. Also in hindsight I should have considered a one piece drive shaft, the sierra output shaft slides and sits much further back in the car which may of made it feasible.

Tunnel mods were limited to moving the gear stick hole back a bit, some strategic dents and some new mounting points. Again in hindsight about 25mm more height in the tunnel would have been better.

Other notes - the slave cylinder covers the oil fill hole, when I build up a box with quaffe bits I'll see about putting a filler on the other side - oh and a drain plug.