B48/N20 Engine swap?

[EqIsMe]

I've been told that the B48 and N20 engines fit almost directly in the 1502 chassis. Does anybody know if this is true?(or with some fabrication?)

Thanks in advance

[TobyB]

Ugh. 

 

Don't believe everything you read on the internets!

 

Yeah, there's probably enough room lengthwise, as in, it would sit in the

engine bay. 

 

Transmissions would be a problem, as BMW's gone with

everyone else and made a short, thick transmission, 

and the 2002 uses a longer, thinner design.

 

Clearance for exhaust would certainly be a challenge, as the 'ledges'

that the 2002 uses are not present on more recent cars, and the drop for

the footwells are much steeper, too, as the passenger compartment

crowds the engine bay a lot more.  You sit well forward in a 2002, much further

back starting with the E30.

 

But the biggest poostack is going to be the electronicals.  By the mid 2000's,

hacking the DME became a lot more work due to encryption, electronic controls

for the oil and water pumps,  and then 

all of the 'extra' inputs that the engine wants, from the electric throttle to the

wheelspeed from the ABS to the yaw from the DSC, yawdda yawdda yawdda.

 

So I'd say that getting an engine to work 'standalone' would be 75% of the work.

After that, welding up some brackets, a tunnel and a driveshaft's not a lotta work.

 

 

OoGleing N20 DME hack didn't find much...

 

t

M54B30.  In an E30.

[EqIsMe]

I know not to trust everything on the internet which is why i posted here

 

Transmission is a bummer but i kind of expected that.
Exhaust would be easy as i have a friend who is a welder(fabricator? sorry for the english)

Instead of running the original ECU, would a standalone be possible? Motec GPRDI-M142 with a aftermarket turbo so no problems with electronic boost control?

This might be a stupid idea but 250-300 hp in a 02 has got me thinking

[TobyB]

It's certainly a tempting idea, I agree!

 

Especially for the power- to- weight ratio.

 

And keeping it BMW.

 

I've never done standalone, (yet, there's a project that needs 'squirting sitting in the barn)

but the sheer number of things that the N20 needs electronics for would intimidate me.

Cams, turbos, pumps- that is a LOT to code...  

 

t

 

[jimk]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:08 PM, EqIsMe said:

Motec GPRDI-M142

Motec handles GDI or do you intend to do a port injection conversion?

You must be good at engine parameters, fuel, spark advance, ignition coil parameters, starting and throttle enrichment.

Edited July 9, 2021 by jimk

[TobyB]

Yeah, Jim, the number of variables going into the fuelling tables alone make my

head decide that maybe an electric car COULD be the answer to everything.

 

t

(it's not)

[M3This]

Sorry to bump and old thread but curious if this went anywhere?

 

with the prices of S14s these days this swap is looking more affordable. While looking online I came across this:

 

https://www.motec.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=2157

 

its a race 3 series running a N55 with direct injection and running a Motec. If they can get that running is should be possible with the N20 or B48. 

 

I’m just curious if there are any Motec tuners in the US that could handle the job. 

[jimk]

10 hours ago, M3This said:

with the prices of S14s these days this swap is looking more affordable. While looking online I came across this:

 

https://www.motec.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=2157

I would guess the S14 swap would look like a cheap deal compared to the money sunk into this cars engine/engine control.

[EqIsMe]

It sadly didn't as the 1502 was completely rusted out, and there isn't any other for sale in my country.

If I were you I would contact scs-delta(They make a standalone for B58)

[cda951]

I would opine that the N20 is a non-starter as it is one of the worst engines that BMW has made (Google it). The B-series engines are better, but the problem with any modern direct fuel injection engine is that it is difficult and expensive to either implement the original DFI system and all of the components/electronics or to "backdate" it to port fuel injection for use with a contemporary aftermarket standalone port fuel injection setup. The high-compression pistons with relief "pockets" for the in-head fuel injectors were deigned with the quenching effect of DFI, so you'd have to rebuild the engine with lower-compression pistons, better connecting rods, etc . . . . 

[M3This]

31 minutes ago, cda951 said:

I would opine that the N20 is a non-starter as it is one of the worst engines that BMW has made (Google it). The B-series engines are better, but the problem with any modern direct fuel injection engine is that it is difficult and expensive to either implement the original DFI system and all of the components/electronics or to "backdate" it to port fuel injection for use with a contemporary aftermarket standalone port fuel injection setup. The high-compression pistons with relief "pockets" for the in-head fuel injectors were deigned with the quenching effect of DFI, so you'd have to rebuild the engine with lower-compression pistons, better connecting rods, etc . . . . 

The early model N20s were the ones that had the issue due to a plastic timing belt guide that would fail and the whole motor would be ruined. On the newer ones I believe it was corrected. 
 

Check out that link I post led above. The Motec is capable of dealing with the DI as they are running it on a N55 so it should be capable of running it on other motors. It’s just a matter of getting that base map and how much a tuner would charge to get you there. 
 

Here is the quote for the Motec forum about the mods on the car:

 

”Yes, all OEM engine.
Mods are:

Bosch 044 lift pump to supply DI pump
M182 ECU
Borg Warner EFR Turbo with external gates (Twin scroll)
Aftermarket Intercooler
Custom Exhaust header to fit turbo with Akrapovic silencer box. 

DI Pump, stock
Injectors, Stock,
With a single scroll variant of this turbo it will spool later but flow better at the top. Note the spool of the M182 engine versus the OEM engine”

 

sorry for the huge font not sure how to fix that on mobile. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by M3This

[M3This]

8 hours ago, EqIsMe said:

It sadly didn't as the 1502 was completely rusted out, and there isn't any other for sale in my country.

If I were you I would contact scs-delta(They make a standalone for B58)

I’ll check them out. Thanks ?? 

[cda951]

@M3This, my experience with the N20 has been tainted by working on BMWs equipped with this engine, often after they have come out of the factory warranty period. The well-documented timing chain issue is exacerbated by BMW's awful service intervals of the period, which caused sludge buildup and subsequent clogging of the oil spray jets for the guides. But, it is just an awful, unrefined engine IMO, that was never designed for any sort of high-performance platform, sorry. I could imagine that a knowledgable, dedicated person could build up a reliable high-performance N20 from scratch, but that would require experience with modifying them as is and seeing what breaks, and then fixing those issues, as with any engine. Maybe some people have done so already and offer upgraded parts, but that would be news to me.

 

I apologize for seeming to piss on your corn flakes, but I don't want to see someone make an expensive mistake. If you are spending the money, the B-series is probably a better way to go. Forged everything, modular parts shared with the B58, etc. Would be more expensive up front when compared to a N20, but probably worth it!

Edited December 16, 2021 by cda951

[M3This]

9 hours ago, cda951 said:

@M3This, my experience with the N20 has been tainted by working on BMWs equipped with this engine, often after they have come out of the factory warranty period. The well-documented timing chain issue is exacerbated by BMW's awful service intervals of the period, which caused sludge buildup and subsequent clogging of the oil spray jets for the guides. But, it is just an awful, unrefined engine IMO, that was never designed for any sort of high-performance platform, sorry. I could imagine that a knowledgable, dedicated person could build up a reliable high-performance N20 from scratch, but that would require experience with modifying them as is and seeing what breaks, and then fixing those issues, as with any engine. Maybe some people have done so already and offer upgraded parts, but that would be news to me.

 

I apologize for seeming to piss on your corn flakes, but I don't want to see someone make an expensive mistake. If you are spending the money, the B-series is probably a better way to go. Forged everything, modular parts shared with the B58, etc. Would be more expensive up front when compared to a N20, but probably worth it!

 

I appreciate the feedback. Thats good info for sure. 

[M3This]

On 12/15/2021 at 12:08 PM, EqIsMe said:

It sadly didn't as the 1502 was completely rusted out, and there isn't any other for sale in my country.

If I were you I would contact scs-delta(They make a standalone for B58)

 

Just emailed them for more info, but it looks like we might be in luck. If you head over to their site it lists they currently have a calibration for the 2.0 B48B20 I4 DI Turbo 265bhp

 

BMW Kits | scs-delta

WWW.SCS-DELTA.CO.UK

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SCS Delta have been running modern BMW engines in engine transplants, race cars and road cars for many years