Idle control for ITBs

[hozzziii]

Alright so I found these on this website

http://www.speedworxs.de/bmw-m3-e30-rennsportteile/bmw-m3-e30-drosselklappen-50mm-throttle-bodies.html

 1,700 euros...yikes

So I assume the 4 holes on all the runners are injector holes, am I correct?

Then what are those two brass ones on the two runners on the right?

On 8/5/2019 at 8:52 PM, jimk said:

the balance air bypass screws on each throat.

are you referring to these 4 brass-looking bolts after the butterflies in this picture?

[jimk]

1 hour ago, hozzziii said:

So I assume the 4 holes on all the runners are injector holes, am I correct?

Then what are those two brass ones on the two runners on the right?

On 8/5/2019 at 10:22 AM, jimk said:

the balance air bypass screws on each throat.

are you referring to these 4 brass-looking bolts after the butterflies in this picture

These are different to some degree than mine.

Yes 4 holes are injector ports

The two brass ones look like vacuum hose connection for brake system. (maybe others here know for sure)

The 4 brass looking bolts are adjustment screws for the balance tuning.

M3 parts are crazy high priced!

 

[hozzziii]

43 minutes ago, jimk said:

The 4 brass looking bolts are adjustment screws for the balance tuning.

Balance tuning? Is that for idle? I'm not familiar with the term. 

[jimk]

There are small air flows at idle. The butterlies will have some differences in the amount of small air flow.  So the valves are for fine tuning the flow.  If not balanced one or more cylinders can be leaner or richer than others.

At open throttles the balance valves perform no function.

Edited August 6, 2019 by jimk

[hozzziii]

6 hours ago, jimk said:

There are small air flows at idle. The butterlies will have some differences in the amount of small air flow.  So the valves are for fine tuning the flow.  If not balanced one or more cylinders can be leaner or richer than others.

At open throttles the balance valves perform no function.

Ah thank you!

[hozzziii]

On 8/5/2019 at 7:26 PM, TobyB said:

An E30 1.8i head still has the CIS bosses, but they're not drilled- so anything could go there.

Interesting, I just checked and my E30 1.8 non-i head doesn't.

It's a 316, with Pireburg 2BE carb, also has the mechanical fuel pump attached to the head. Casting date was I think October 84.

Shame, missed opportunity.

Edited August 9, 2019 by hozzziii

[Dudeland]

These folks have some fun stuff

 

https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bodies-and-components/throttle-bodies

 

I could never get a good answer on how they use the IAC, how it is plumbed and the real world results on a M10.  Also they don't really explain how their manifold differs with a normal DCOE setup.

 

I am out of this game because turbo , although apparently you can run these with forced induction. 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Dudeland

[hozzziii]

13 minutes ago, Dudeland said:

I am out of this game because turbo , although apparently you can run these with forced induction. 

Looking at the E46 M3, I'm positive it can be done.

Also I agree, they don't post a lot of information.

 

BUT, I found this:

https://store.jenvey.co.uk/pub/media/documents/instructions/AFP_I.pdf

It shows the plumbing for their IAC kit, by which I mean:

https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bodies-and-components/air-bypass-valve-fittings

On this page you can see what kits they supply for idle air. 

In case of our beloved M10 4cyl engine, for the M10 kit, they supply this:

https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bodies-and-components/air-bypass-valve-fittings/air-control-valve-kit-4-ports-avk2t2

Which had that manual at the bottom of the page.

 

Interesting, it looks to be riiiiiight next to the injector hole, but I assume it's pointing down a bit more, so that the injector is downstream of the idle air insert.

I wonder what this would mean if I was planning on running a MAP sensor, like, look how close that is!

How am I going to get a sensor after this insert? Unless I put the hoses for the sensor right there, and tap in from a little farther back or even under the throttle body to insert the Idle Air hoses, could do that.

[Dudeland]

Here is the correspondence I received from Simon Austin from Jenvey, Marketing & Sales Assistant.  His answers didn't give me the confidence to shell out $3K (CDN) for a set of glorified TBI's.  This conversation refers to the Heritage DCOE setup. 

 

Question: 

I have a BMW 2002 with an M10 2.0L engine. There is a lot of discussion about the Idle circuit and intake manifold to use with your setup. You say that it will work with any DCOE setup, but many manifolds have ports connected to normalize pulses between cyl, this is important with DCOE's but how does this apply to the Heritage setup?. 

How do I set up an IAC circuit with your manifold?, as well as get a vacuum reference for a MAP sensor?, or do you recommend a MAF with one of your manifolds? 

Do you have a reference customer or example with this setup working on a BMW M10 manifold?

 

Answer : 

 

I will have a look if we have any photos of people using our bodies on this engine.

 

I believe the ports being connected will not be needed with the heritage throttle bodies as they work differently to carbs.

 

To run a vacuum, you would need this - 

 

 

 

Question: 

 

You state that you can use the heritage anywhere where you have DOCE’s.  So what are the differences that I would need to pay attention to when installing them?   How are they different from a DCOE setup?

 

Answer: 

You can use your existing DCOE manifold. You would need a standalone ECU which you wouldn’t normally use, a high pressure fuel pump would be needed too.

 

Question:

Understood,  I would use something like a Halltech 1500.  What about an Idle Air Control circuit?  Why does your manifold not share (a) port between the intakes like this DCOE M10 Manifold? Is there a reason why? (showing picture of I.E DCOE manifold) 

 

Answer: 

I’m not sure why our manifolds don’t work in the way your manifold does. I’m guessing it is not required for EFI as I haven’t seen that before.

 

The idle control circuit can be done through the take offs on the body or the idle control valve kit. (requires minor machining of their intake)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hozzziii]

1 hour ago, Dudeland said:

Here is the correspondence I received from Simon Austin from Jenvey, Marketing & Sales Assistant.

I appreciate your direct approach sir, straight to the salesman! 

Hats off to you.

[Dudeland]

I appreciate your direct approach sir, straight to the salesman! 
Hats off to you.

35 years of sales. Old habits are hard to break.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chamonix72]

I have one vacuum port in my intake manifold. From there, I have a chunk of fuel rail to act like a vacuum manifold of sorts. Everything that needs a vacuum source (brake booster, MAP, fuel pressure regulator, IAC motor) is plumbed into that vacuum manifold. I use a Jeep 4.0L IAC motor to manage cold start and idle. Idle is 1000-1100 when warm.

[hozzziii]

17 minutes ago, Chamonix72 said:

I have one vacuum port in my intake manifold. From there, I have a chunk of fuel rail to act like a vacuum manifold of sorts. Everything that needs a vacuum source (brake booster, MAP, fuel pressure regulator, IAC motor) is plumbed into that vacuum manifold. I use a Jeep 4.0L IAC motor to manage cold start and idle. Idle is 1000-1100 when warm.

Hmm, seems like a simple solution. 

Thanks for sharing!

[Chamonix72]

You will need to weld the IAC mount plate to that log to attach the IAC stepper motor, but that’s the toughest bit to fabricate.

[hozzziii]

10 hours ago, Chamonix72 said:

You will need to weld the IAC mount plate to that log to attach the IAC stepper motor, but that’s the toughest bit to fabricate.

Yes I figured. 

From the conversation our friend Dudeland had with the sales guy, (requires minor machining of their intake) 

yes that sounds like some fabrication will be necessary. 

So it sounds to me, I will need to machine the port right behind the butterflies and tap in the Idle control holes. 

Then at the holes right before the injectors I could attach the vacuum hoses for the MAP sensor. 

 

This way the sensor input is after the Idle circuit, and still upstream of the injectors, so all should be good.