Timing cover leak. Do I have to pull the motor?

[Tdh]

I've got a pretty significant leak at the front of my engine that appears to be at the head gasket where the upper/lower timing covers meet.   I assume that if I pull the radiator I'll have room to handle this without pulling the motor.  Anything I'm missing?  Anything else I should plan on replacing while I have the covers off?  

[Hans]

Was the head recently off the motor for repairs? Is the leak at the corners where the covers meet the head? 

[2002Scoob]

Front upper timing cover leaks are pretty common, and are usually due to a few things.

 

1, the cover was not machined at the same height as the head, and your leak is coming from between the valve-cover gasket due to a physical step between the height of the head and the front cover being different, then leaking down.

 

2. The upper timing cover was installed improperly. There is a proper sequence to tightening the bolts in order to achieve a tight fit in the lower corner.

 

3. The upper timing cover was installed without a dab of RTV silicone in the lower corners, which can also cause a small leak. 

 

You can carefully remove the upper timing cover and inspect, just be careful not to damage the forward portion of the headgasket when doing so. No need to remove the radiator, but removing the upper radiator hose in front of the cover that goes to the thermostat might make it easier. if you've got some flexy-joints to your ratchets, or your hands are good in small places, you might be fine.  

 

There are two paper seals that go between the forward face of the head and the front cover. You might be able to get away a garage-fix without them with a light smear of RTV, light torque, let set up, then clamp it down in the proper sequence.

 

Experts out there, did I miss anything?

Edited December 17, 2018 by 2002Scoob

[Stevenc22]

Definitely worth removing the upper timing cover and carefully putting some RTV in the corners. Be careful not to damage the head gasket. 50/50 chance the RTV will work and no extra work will be necessary.

 

 

 

[coloincaalpine RIP 2021]

Highly recommend  Permatex Ultra Gray or Ultra Black for this job.

[Tdh]

No head work or rebuild on this motor.  Its a leak that started slowly and has gotten progressively worse.  When I bought the car, I was able to slow the leak by re-torquing the upper cover. 

 

I'm not a fan of RTV.  I prefer hylomar instead.  If I'm gonna go through the trouble of pulling the covers off, I'll go ahead and replace the gaskets as well.  Thought I might check out the condition of the tensioner and the timing guides as well.  

 

I have a lift and engine hoists, so pulling the motor (or lifting the car away from it) is no biggie.  I just don't want to have to pull it if I can do this job without yanking the lump out. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Tdh

[2002Scoob]

You're opening a giant can of worms if you need to remove the lower cover as well, as you have to pull the forward crank pulley and oil pan, and there's a mess of other things to consider at that point. 

 

It's also the point at which you might be better off pulling the motor entirely.

 

But if the motor is in good health and you're going that route, might as well pull the motor to check and replace your upper and lower timing cogs, tensioners/guides, and timing chain. If it's never been rebuilt... it's worth considering!

 

#scope-creep. 

[2002Scoob]

and while you're in there, also replace your oil pump chain/cog, remove and inspect the oil-pump itself and replace. Replace your aging water pump... 

 

contemplate DCOE's.... 

 

but if you're going to go DCOE's, you likely want a bigger cam... and if you need a bigger cam, that means you gotta pull the head....

 

and if you pull the head.... 

 

Anybody remember that 'If you give a Mouse a Cookie' Book?

[Tdh]

Thanks Scoob.  That's what I was after.  Seems like a gain some room by pulling the radiator and grills etc. but maybe not enough to get the lower pulley off.  I can pull apart most Brit cars from memory, but I just don't have the time in working on the '02 yet.  

[Tdh]

6 minutes ago, 2002Scoob said:

 

 

contemplate DCOE's.... 

 

 

Ha! No thanks.  I'd just squirt the damn thing before I went the DCOE's...

[Hans]

Since the head was not off recently, perhaps we can eliminate the faulty upper cover milling. You might be able to get away with removing that cover, gently cleaning the surfaces with brake clean on a rag (Don't bend head gasket, just slide a folded paper towel under it), changing paper gasket and gooping all surfaces with product of your choice. Depends on where oil is getting out. If it works, maybe a few hours work..

But you risk compromising the bit of head gasket that sticks out. Pulling lower cover ups the scope creep ante, and may compromise the pan gasket. it can be done in situ, but a bit of a pig getting in there. If the head has never been off, i'd be thinking about biting more of a bullet and pulling the head for a refresh. A fresh head gasket and sealant may solve the problem without pulling lower cover. But  there is the timing chain, etc......so maybe better in that case to pull engine and then pan to have a look around. You'd be better getting a full gasket set at that point. So you can quickly end up doing a full rebuild, clutch. .....

 

So I'd try just the cover unless you plan to keep the car.

[Tdh]

Thanks for the responses guys.  I've got a 5 speed I need to go pickup and go through that I was planning on swapping in soon.  Seems like I may as well try removing the upper cover, and giving it the clean and seal treatment to see if that's all it is.  There's a ton of oil at the front of the engine, so its difficult to tell now.  There's also a pooling under the oil filter at the ridge above where the pan meets the block.  Maybe I have an issue with oil blowing past the oil filter seal at startup as well.  

[2002Scoob]

Perhaps a few photos of the area of issue would also help in the diagnosis, but I think you're on the right track!