Advice on Turbo purchase

$frached$ · May 5, 2018

I have been a BMWCCA member for over 30 years and have owned many BMWs, including 2002s. I am finally close to purchasing my first ever Turbo.

I have narrowed my search down to 2 cars in Europe. First is a silver 74 with sunroof and 5 speed, restored with a BMW Classic CoA. has German registration with 5 owners but no other documentation.

The second Turbo is also silver 74 with a 4speed and no sunroof. Extremely clean, low mileage, CoA and great documentation.

Both cars equally clean but the 4 speed/no sunroof car probably edges out the others because of less owners and lower miles.

The biggest question I have is, how to determine the value of the 5 speed and sunroof?

Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks- Fares

Conserv · May 7, 2018

Opinion? You asked for an opinion? Mine is worth every bit what you’re paying for it....

Are the sunroof and 5-speed — and by “5 speed”, I’m assuming you are indicating a factory close-ratio unit — documented by the factory, delivering dealer, or other highly-reliable source, such as a documented photo from, say, 1975? Does that CofA saying anything beyond “mechanical” for the transmission? Absent this, it’s pretty nigh impossible to prove a sunroof or a 5-speed close-ratio is original to any 2002, including a factory turbo. I don’t believe such data was maintained, even for turbos. If these were Mercedes, the data card would unambiguously show the factory equipment and there’d be a tangible bump to the car’s value for being “fully loaded”, not a big percentage mind you, but a “bump”.

But both options can be added — even a sunroof can be installed retroactively — leaving little no evidence. And sunroofs have certainly been added to a few turbos — although I believe a few turbos also left the factory with sunroofs. I, thus, believe the premium for a turbo’s sunroof or 5-speed is smaller than the “bump” you’d get with full documentation of these options. And it doesn’t sound like your 5-speed and sunroof car is fully documented.

Since I could add a 5-speed, or even a sunroof — I considered buying a basket-case turbo about 6 years ago, and, yes, I probably would have added both options since I would have been starting with a dis-assembled shell and the 4-speed needed rebuilding — I would always opt for the more original, more documented example. Yes, this is bad economics: it almost always costs more to restore a car than to buy a restored example. But my goal with old cars, and old houses — my other passion — is to have as much original, and as little restored, as needed (but, yes, I still want the car to look good)!

I’d say originality, documentation, and — for a restored car — the quality of the restoration comprise the lion’s share of the market value: 5 speeds and sunroofs are just icing on the cake.

Good luck, and please show us what you end up buying.

Regards,

Steve

Edited May 9, 2018 by Conserv

Preyupy · May 7, 2018

My CofA gave a build date, delivery date, Color Chamonix, 4 speed transmission, heated rear window.

m6smitten · May 8, 2018

Did they put they build-sheet under the rear seat?

Einspritz · May 9, 2018

Do you want to store it in your collection or drive it?

Conserv · May 9, 2018

On 5/7/2018 at 8:07 PM, m6smitten said:

Did they put they build-sheet under the rear seat?

Only in our dreams....

My ‘61 F-350, however, had its build sheet under the seat.... ?

Regards,

Steve

Edited May 9, 2018 by Conserv

Conserv · May 9, 2018

On 5/7/2018 at 6:25 PM, Preyupy said:

My CofA gave a build date, delivery date, Color Chamonix, 4 speed transmission, heated rear window.

Byron,

Hmmm....I’m showing a heated rear window as standard equipment on square taillight cars...

Did some turbos come without one? If so, did they simply have a blank knob — akin to the blank knob that came on the front fog light location?

Best regards,

Steve

Edited May 9, 2018 by Conserv

$frached$ · May 9, 2018

I really appreciate everyone's input. The car in Germany with sunroof and 5 speed does indicate the sunroof on CoA. Unfortunately no build sheet available. I have asked for pictures of any markings on the tranny hoping to at least determine if it is from the correct era. Does anyone know what I could look for in these markings?

To answer one of the questions, yes, we would drive the car on occasion, take to shows but otherwise would be properly stored.

Einspritz · May 9, 2018

If they did it would have the interior color code.

Einspritz · May 9, 2018

You can look at the flat that bolts up to the block near the head. There will be a a model (235/5) / serial number. also, there will be stampings e.g. 37 on the top of both the rear and the intermediate case parts. But you won't be able to see them as they will face the transmission tunnel.

The year of casting is inside the case where the clutch is, so you won't be able to see that as well.

Here's my take on the decision process; Silver, the 5-speed and sunroof are always more desirable and more fun than the other, particularly if they are OE. An overdrive 5 speed is not for this car, nor any 2002 for that matter.

On 5/4/2018 at 8:37 PM, frached said:

First is a silver 74 with sunroof and 5 speed, restored with a BMW Classic CoA. has German registration with 5 owners but no other documentation.

BUT as far as value, the documentation is very valuable history. Others may disagree with me, but if you are going to repair or replace "the big things" e.g. engine, transmission, injection, differential, then the documentation isn't such a big deal. You would then create your own documentation. My biggest question in your case, is "what is restored"? Do they have all the parts receipts? If not, I would be suspect, but not a deal killer; you will be having to figure out what was done and what was not.

In my case, I am the 3rd owner and have all the records since the first owner. All those service records give a great insight as to not only the history of the vehicle, but the level of care the previous owner(s). I've added all the work that has been done on the car since 1983; the parts, the mileage and the dates.

Currently under conservation, I have kept every receipt, and documented most everything with photos, but I do (almost) all my own work.

Just to mess with your dilemma, the low mileage car will probably not require things like a transmission rebuild in your lifetime. Having just done that, I can say that parts are a challenge, it took me almost two years to find all of them as they are different from the standard 2002. Maybe the same rarity as the 5-speed. The 4 speed transmissions are robust.

According to my records, things like Turbo exhaust scrolls crack at about every 15K-20K miles (not that it is a really big problem), and exhaust manifolds pose a similar situation in my experience with others' cars due to an improperly tuned (lean) system. Come to think of it, ditto for exhaust valves.

Byron can comment as he has done several cars as can "the Werk Shop" and Sean Casey to name a few.

Can you at least get a PPI with a good leakdown test?

For me an OE sunroof car would be better than not.

In the end, go with your gut, you will have fun either way.

Conserv · May 9, 2018

8 hours ago, Einspritz said:

...An overdrive 5 speed is not for this car, nor any 2002 for that matter...

Thank you! That makes at least 2 of us — and the original ‘02 engineers — who believe an ‘02 is best above 3,500 rpms....

Best regards,

Steve

Einspritz · May 9, 2018

I will digress; without showing the math, on a Tii, the engine is pulse tuned from the factory to be most efficient at 4000 rpm. With a (Euro) 3:45 differential that makes it about 80 MPH / 30+ MPG.

While the HP peak is the same for the Tii and Turbo at 5800 RPM, the Torque peak for the Tii is at 4500 RPM and the Turbo at 4000 rpm, which is about when the turbo is at boost.

The Turbo on the other hand will be faster due to the 3:36, but still get the 30+ MPG.

I can't tell you how many times I have driven in the Turbo from the S.F. Bay area to the Los Angeles area or Santa Barbara on a single tank at "about" that speed. Of course, you are mostly at vacuum and not boost at those highway cruising speeds.