engine and drivetrain What engine would be an easy and reliable swap?

[Danny]

I have a 73 2002 that use to belong to my father in law. The car is built to be raced, and was for a while by him at the now non existent Bridgehampton raceway, lime rock and so on. The engine was built by Eric Kerman, it has the close ratio 5 speed, coil overs, a roll cage and so on. The engine makes about 140-50hp I've been told, and in a car this light it's not bad, however lately I feel I need more power. Spoke to Peter at MWE a few months back and it seems (unless I misunderstood him) that that's what these motors make. I would like more power, so I've been thinking of swapping in an S2000 engine. Seems engine/trans can be had for about $4000. Not sure what else would be involved but it seems like a good idea. Anyone have any experience with this swap? Worth it?

Thanks,

Danny

[ray_]

Probably a small turbo on an FI M10 would be easiest, for a bit more power.

After that, things get more complicated and expensive IMO.

S2000 here: http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,50/page,viewtopic/t,362420/

Cheers,

Ray

I have a 73 2002 that use to belong to my father in law. The car is built to be raced, and was for a while by him at the now non existent Bridgehampton raceway, lime rock and so on. The engine was built by Eric Kerman, it has the close ratio 5 speed, coil overs, a roll cage and so on. The engine makes about 140-50hp I've been told, and in a car this light it's not bad, however lately I feel I need more power. Spoke to Peter at MWE a few months back and it seems (unless I misunderstood him) that that's what these motors make. I would like more power, so I've been thinking of swapping in an S2000 engine. Seems engine/trans can be had for about $4000. Not sure what else would be involved but it seems like a good idea. Anyone have any experience with this swap? Worth it?

Thanks,

Danny

[Danny]

thanks

[Swiftus]

Easy/Reliable/Cheap are the three 'Holy Grail' aspirations of most engine swaps once one gets past the motivation for the swap; ie more power or better economy.

I'm not sure how easy the S2000 swap will be. Unknown and uncharted territory comes with all sorts of unforeseeable risks. Easy - Probably Not / Reliable - Only about 15 million Vtecs still working / Cheap - Eh, $4000 plus some for fiddly bits and you are definitely beyond inexpensive, edging beyond middle of the road into expensive territory.

Here are two options that are discussed in massive detail on this forum; just search for them.

The first is the M42 motor from BMW. The swap has been done by a number of members of the board, one of whom has developed a set of motor mounts to locate the motor within an 02. More modern than an M10 (Mid 80s motor tech) with DOHC and EFI, it creates ~140 to 150 hp stock. And the motor can be machined to create way more than that when naturally aspirated. A stock motor can be had for $500, used with 80,000 to 120,000 miles on the clock. If taken care of properly, they last very long. Easy - Relatively, Many 'found' parts but has been done reliably before / Reliable - Quite, Huge factor of safety with most of the parts, was designed to last / Cheap - Probably the least expensive non-M10 swap around. Not sure of the final cost, but its probably close to $2500. Search for 'M42 Swap'

The other easy BMW motor swap is an S14. This engine was derived from an M10 and its block shares lineage. This means very little modification to the car to make it fit. About as 'drop-in' as one can get. It was in the early 90s M3, so it is the same era technology as the M42. Nonetheless, the motor develops more than 200hp stock, and can easily be coaxed to create 220 with minor modifications. The catch is the expense of the entire operation. Building an S14 costs $10,000+ because of the rarity of the parts. So, Easy - Yes, but remember Molke's theory of war "no plan survives contact with the enemy" / Reliable - Modern technology = modern reliability / Cheap - Absolutely not... but you get what you pay for... Search for 'S14 Swap'

I have personally seen (and participated briefly) in both engine swaps as well as a number of M10 swaps (standard 02, ti clone, and tii). None of them are what I would call easy. M10 to M10 is better because it doesn't require re-engineering. S14 is probably next, but that motor begins to become a bit of a squeeze in some areas. M42 makes for a fun car, but there is a fair bit of minor modifications that are going to have to be done 'on the fly'. I have seen an M20 swap, but since I have no real experience I would rather not touch on it.

IMHO, you currently have a race car (your words). Race cars are not comfortable and even if they are reliable they tend to be quite touchy. If you are looking for a daily driver, your current car is most likely not it. Eric Kerman isn't known for making economy machines. Maybe most of an explanation would help. Who you are, where you come from, intended purpose of the car, possibly a photo or three...

Welcome!

[Danny]

Thanks for your response. I've considered the S14, but as you mentioned it's not cheap nor does it make enough power to make it worth while to me.

I have no problem with the fact that my car is not comfortable. I actually like that. I just want it to be faster. Maybe becuse my daily driver is a 135i, but I want something similar power wise in the 2002. Otherwise the car is an absolute hoot to drive and let me say this again, it's not slow as it is, I just want more power but don't feel like spending $10k. 5 I can do, but it's gotta make at least 240hp and be reliable. I'll post some pics tomorrow if anyone cares.

[Danny]

actually, here are a few pics. I have a set of custom wheels that have slicks on them for the track as well as a single aluminum seat that I'll have to put back in in the spring.

here is the car "at work"

and here is his grandson

[Swiftus]

135i... My favorite modern car that I have any hope in owning only eclipsed by the 1M. (If the 123d were offered here in the states, that would probably be tied with the 135)

Ok, so if S14s are out and ~250hp is a satisfying target, would you care much about turbo lag? If you have the right motor conditions, popping on a turbo with some EFI, one can get pretty close to that power mark with an M10. I'm not sure about the reliability, but for a DIY solution that is probably up to you. If your current motor is in good condition, altering it for lower compression to compensate for the turbo shouldn't be too expensive. Adding a big enough turbo to make 100 more hp to an M10 will be. I don't know enough about the custom work, but one of the engine experts will eventually chime in. They will be able to tell you if you can afford 250hp in an M10.

I am biased against putting a different make's motor into a BMW. I think that since the engine is the heart of the car, and one's soul resides within their heart, transplanting a different heart results in an altered soul... not something I am a fan of regarding most BMWs.

As a result, I don't like the idea of a high revving motor in a typically mid-revving car. I have been in an S2000 that revved to 12,500 rpm. It was a drifter's car, but the shriek from that tailpipe would be out of place coming out the back of a BMW. Its right for the S2000, but IMO not for a BMW.

[Danny]

The engine in my car is in perfect condition. Eric did a fantastic job. I feel that if I had to go and basically ruin it by opening it up and swapping the pistons, honing the block and then turbocharging the engine with all supporting modification just to make 250hp, I'd probably have to spend $6-7k. I think I can get a S2000 engine in there for similar money and it will be infinetly more reliable. Note the "I think" part, as I really don't know who can get this done for me, or would I have to do this myself. Plus, I feel that my M10 with the 5 speed has to be worth $4k at least so that will offset the cost of the swap...

[Danny]

as far as the engine being the soul of the car...not sure I agree. Matter of fact, if I can get a 4G63 to fit in there (it wont), I'd do it in a heartbeat. 400 reliable hp? Yes please.

[Swiftus]

Here is an interesting side note...

Your 135i has 300hp and weighs about 3400lbs, which puts it lb/hp right at about 11.3 lb/hp. Its 0-60 time is 5.1 seconds.

To get similar performance from an 02 that weighs in at 2200lbs, your would need 195hp. 2000lbs requires only 175hp and 2400lbs needs 213hp. So, if the goal would be equal the performance of your modern toy, you would be able to get away with a 200hp engine. This is relatively inexpensive to do with the capital / resources you already have available.

250hp would put you between 8 and 9.6 lb/hp depending on weight. The 1M has 9.85lbs/hp and can do a 0-60 time in 4.7 seconds. I was told as a rule of thumb that the 10lb/hp mark indicated a 5 second 0-60 time. To do that, a 2002 would need anywhere from 200 to 240hp.

Ok, enough data, here is my point. If you want more performance at a discount, get rid of the weight! Its free! if you can drop the weight of the car to 2000lbs, you only need 200hp to match the performance of a 1M. I say only, but you know the situation...

The talk about weight gets my on to weight balance. What is the weight of the S2000 running gear? Engine, trans...

[Guest]

M20, 170hp stock and can be opened up to nearly 3.2L from 2.5. The whole swap is very easy and cheap to do. It does weight more than the M10, about 80lbs.

I'm not sure what the F20c weighs, it's all aluminum but DOHC. I searched it for a while and kept getting really high numbers, like 330lbs, which seems absurd for an all aluminum 4cyl. Maybe one of the people who recently bought one could weigh it for us. Just remember, if you can get the motor for 4k expect another 2k for misc parts. Its a sweet motor, I'd love to have one in a 2002 but not many people have done the swap so there isn't a lot of information about the swap.

Other option, sell the current motor and buy a good running motor or one to do a stock bottom rebuild on. 5,000 for a megasquirt turbo setup isn't too difficult, the M10 is pretty robust and will easily hold 250hp on a stock bottom end. Borgwarner EFR6255, saab 900 IC w/aluminum end tanks, megaquirt 2, 42lb injectors, turbo manifold from good'n'tight on bimmerforums(I think he is on here as Otis?), 3" exhaust.

Or take the carbs and a few other parts off your motor, pull it and swap pistons to something arund 8.5:1 and then turbo it.

[NickVyse]

s2000 just been done in the UK - you'll have to register on the forum to see the pics I think, but it's quick and free.

http://www.02forum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3577

[pwagon717]

Just leave it alone. It is a perfectly great car set-up already. Get another one to do that swap. You can not replace the work that has been done with that car, esp the close ratio.

[Danny]

You do bring up a good point, but I don't think the car is worth all that much. What can I get? $8k maybe?

[spets]

As an owner of an S2000, I can say that the engine is pretty well reliable. The early years (00-03) have a 9k redline but they occasionally have oil consumption issues. The newer (04+) have a 8k redline, but they have 0.2 more L of displacement so slightly more torque down low. Same peak HP.

The S2000 has a 4.1 rear end ratio, so it will feel more lethargic if you have a stock 3.6 rear end in your car. If you already have a 4.1, then perfect. This engine loves to rev.