Distributor curves/timing for '76 Automatic CA - 123ignition

[02sahara]

14 hours ago, John76 said:

Sounds like you have way too much advance. Engine is fighting itself against the starter.

Check the numerous posts about the initial TDC setting needed for the 123 dizzy.

Well, I AM reading all the posts here before doing or posting anything, so everything that it did not see, was not "findable" so ... I am pretty sure about the initial TDC setup, and only one thing to confirm I did it right:

1. The LED (off) was not visible in any of the 4 holes.
2. I turned the dizzy CCW.
3. And when the LED just appeared through one of those holes AND went green, I stopped immediately.

Or do I need to have the LED (off) in step 1. already visible through any of those holes before turning AND THEN turn it CCW? ... making the light turn green when it almost becomes hidden again (that's what I have seen in some videos, but as far as the manual explains, the steps I described are correct).

[02sahara]

17 hours ago, Hans said:

Car ran, you change dizzy, car doesnt run. That should guide you investigation. That's exactly why I suggested you get car running first.

Well, even when I "fixed" the old distributor, it was hard getting it started (cold) and was probably lucky enough with enough tries. Yesterday maybe not so much look. So for me it feels like the problem did not change actually.

 

I will do some checks on the plugs, as you mention, also waiting for TDC static timing 123 confirmation, and then starter volts and so on. Will keep you posted, just for documentation reasons.

[Hans]

1 hour ago, awesomade said:

Well, I AM reading all the posts here before doing or posting anything, so everything that it did not see, was not "findable" so ... I am pretty sure about the initial TDC setup, and only one thing to confirm I did it right:

1. The LED (off) was not visible in any of the 4 holes.
2. I turned the dizzy CCW.
3. And when the LED just appeared through one of those holes AND went green, I stopped immediately.

Or do I need to have the LED (off) in step 1. already visible through any of those holes before turning AND THEN turn it CCW? ... making the light turn green when it almost becomes hidden again (that's what I have seen in some videos, but as far as the manual explains, the steps I described are correct).

What four holes are we  talking about? And LED.

The idea of pulling a plug and grounding it is (a) to see if there is a spark, and (b) to see If spark happens near TDC. You can do this by turning the motor over manually, or by turning the dizzy.

Picture the rotor turning clockwise (normal direction) towards the #1 contact in the cap; when it gets there, the plug should spark (ignition on). Then picture instead turning the distributor counter clockwise towards #1 from the other direction, having turned it clockwise first to move past #1 contact.. It will spark #1.

I assume 123 works the same. But i'm not familiar with 123 TDC setting.

I thought you got the engine running pretty well. When you had the original dizzy in there, did you explore the other suggestions to improve starting, running, etc. Problem now is that you may have introduced another variable without confirming that the old dizzy was to blame.

[02sahara]

Well yes, I kind of agree, it could have turned out better; and I should have probably did some starts and tests on secutive days instead of just one with the old dizzy. To revert it back to the old setup would cause some work that I won't to avoid. Also let me underline again:

• Fixing the contact breaker gap / dwell angle and somewhat oxidized points did remove the problem of the engine having a rough idle and necessity to to pump the pedal after the engine started.
• But it did not seem to fix the starting problem as the cold start let the battery almost die. Really had to crank it for a good amount of time.

Regarding the LED thing: The 123 dizzy basically has a integrated LED (test light) that lights up when reaching TDC.

 

But to investigate a little bit further to hopefully find and fix the problem soon let me sum up my latest test results:

• Battery is fine: Voltage above 12,5 and during cranking not below at around 10,5V. BTW it's new.
• Fuel: Don't have starter spray to test with, but did it with brake cleaner and no change. Also after some cranking you can smell the gasoline even without the air filter cove removed; removed the carb looks like fuel supply works pretty well. Can you confirm that fuel is not the problem and that smell and visual checks do confirm this in this case? Otherwise I would need to unplug the fuel hose and check the delivery while cranking.
• Carb gasket: One thing I noticed now is, that it seems like the lower carb gasket is letting fuel out. See picture(s) below. Not sure if this is the case, but it is fuel I can confirm. Can this cause starting problems like that?
• Ignition/Spark: I grounded ignition wire from the coil and gives good spark. I grounded spark plug #1 and gives also spark.
  • I measured voltage between disconnected green ignition wire (the one that goes to port (15)) to the coil and ground which gave me 9-10V during cranking. Is that enough? And also not sure if I tested it right?
• Starter:
  • Resting voltage = battery voltage
  • Cranking voltage is 10,1–10,5V. Is that enough?
  • Voltage drop measurement: 0,1V of (+) side
    Voltage drop measurement of (-) side: Wasn't able to perform. What is the negative port of the starter? Thought it is grounded by the engine ...

So yeah that's it for today. Perhaps you notice some irregularities already ...

[Hans]

5 minutes ago, awesomade said:

 

where to begin. It would have been a better idea to get it running with the old dizzy. 

Well yes, I kind of agree, it could have turned out better; and I should have probably did some starts and tests on secutive days instead of just one with the old dizzy. To revert it back to the old setup would cause some work that I won't to avoid. Also let me underline again:

• Fixing the contact breaker gap / dwell angle and somewhat oxidized points did remove the problem of the engine having a rough idle and necessity to to pump the pedal after the engine started.
• But it did not seem to fix the starting problem as the cold start let the battery almost die. Really had to crank it for a good amount of time. It has to be the right TDC. Did you see my suggestion about checking choke.

Regarding the LED thing: The 123 dizzy basically has a integrated LED (test light) that lights up when reaching TDC. 

 

But to investigate a little bit further to hopefully find and fix the problem soon let me sum up my latest test results:

• Battery is fine: Voltage above 12,5 and during cranking not below at around 10,5V. BTW it's new. 10.5 is not stunning. Are you recharging batttery?
• Fuel: Don't have starter spray to test with, but did it with brake cleaner and no change. Also after some cranking you can smell the gasoline even without the air filter cove removed; removed the carb looks like fuel supply works pretty well. Can you confirm that fuel is not the problem and that smell and visual checks do confirm this in this case? Otherwise I would need to unplug the fuel hose and check the delivery while cranking. 
• How old is the fuel? Old gas does smell different
• Carb gasket: One thing I noticed now is, that it seems like the lower carb gasket is letting fuel out. See picture(s) below. Not sure if this is the case, but it is fuel I can confirm. Can this cause starting problems like that? Absolutely. It can also cause the car to catch on fire. You probably need a new gasket, but that looks like it may be coming from further up. Maybe float is not working properly. Which takes us back to rebuilding teh carb but I hate to introduce yet another variable.. And are those orange wire for vacuum? they look pretty scuzzy. Do they fit snuggly? Any cracks?. And that black hose in the last picture - is that vacuum? It looks bad at connection. Is the metal pipe solid? Thats been going on for a while.  
• Ignition/Spark: I grounded ignition wire from the coil and gives good spark. I grounded spark plug #1 and gives also spark.
  • I measured voltage between disconnected green ignition wire (the one that goes to port (15)) to the coil and ground which gave me 9-10V during cranking. Is that enough? And also not sure if I tested it right? 9-10 is not enough. How long are you cranking? Question is: is the spark at TDC at #1 firing position?
• Starter:
  • Resting voltage = battery voltage
  • Cranking voltage is 10,1–10,5V. Is that enough? It drops from 12.5 to 10?
  • Voltage drop measurement: 0,1V of (+) side
    Voltage drop measurement of (-) side: Wasn't able to perform. What is the negative port of the starter? Thought it is grounded by the engine ...  It is. Make sure connections and ground cable are clean and tight.

So yeah that's it for today. Perhaps you notice some irregularities already ...

 

[02sahara]

Over night I was thinking that the obviously(?) leaking carburetor gasket does fit well to the (cold-)start problem ... which could also explain why I starts okay/better when warmed up already, due to expansion of materials leading to somewhat sealing the gasket temporarily.

 

Not sure if such a leak could make a car not start. But from previous comments I assume yes.

[Hans]

1 hour ago, awesomade said:

Over night I was thinking that the obviously(?) leaking carburetor gasket does fit well to the (cold-)start problem ... which could also explain why I starts okay/better when warmed up already, due to expansion of materials leading to somewhat sealing the gasket temporarily.

 

Not sure if such a leak could make a car not start. But from previous comments I assume yes.

Did you read all of my comments above? If the gasket IS faulty, it may let air in. May. I should have said possibly. Depends on how far gone it is. But I doubt it's the magic bullet . As I said, that gas appears to be coming from above the gasket. Find source. Again, are you sure you have set correct tdc? Please review comments in red and recent questions. What is that black thing connected to the scuzzy round bit on the carb? 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Hans
More

[02sahara]

• But it did not seem to fix the starting problem as the cold start let the battery almost die. Really had to crank it for a good amount of time. It has to be the right TDC. Did you see my suggestion about checking choke.
  • It is at TDC.
  • You mean auto choke thing? No, haven't seen your suggestion. But I can make the flap close by pushing the pedal.
• Battery is fine: Voltage above 12,5 and during cranking not below at around 10,5V. BTW it's new. 10.5 is not stunning. Are you recharging battery?
  • Yes, completely recharged. Learned that 9,5 and below cranking voltage wouldn't be enough – so assume 10.5V is okay.
• Fuel: Don't have starter spray to test with, but did it with brake cleaner and no change. Also after some cranking you can smell the gasoline even without the air filter cove removed; removed the carb looks like fuel supply works pretty well. Can you confirm that fuel is not the problem and that smell and visual checks do confirm this in this case? Otherwise I would need to unplug the fuel hose and check the delivery while cranking. How old is the fuel? Old gas does smell different
  • 3 Months, but I put in gasoline stabilizer as well.
• Carb gasket: One thing I noticed now is, that it seems like the lower carb gasket is letting fuel out. See picture(s) below. Not sure if this is the case, but it is fuel I can confirm. Can this cause starting problems like that? Absolutely. It can also cause the car to catch on fire. You probably need a new gasket, but that looks like it may be coming from further up. Maybe float is not working properly. Which takes us back to rebuilding teh carb but I hate to introduce yet another variable.. And are those orange wire for vacuum? they look pretty scuzzy. Do they fit snuggly? Any cracks?. And that black hose in the last picture - is that vacuum? It looks bad at connection. Is the metal pipe solid? Thats been going on for a while.  
  • Orange, yes, vac; but lines are all good and tested.
  • There is no black hose or line in the picture. It is a lever/linkage.
• Ignition/Spark: I grounded ignition wire from the coil and gives good spark. I grounded spark plug #1 and gives also spark.
  • I measured voltage between disconnected green ignition wire (the one that goes to port (15)) to the coil and ground which gave me 9-10V during cranking. Is that enough? And also not sure if I tested it right? 9-10 is not enough. How long are you cranking? Question is: is the spark at TDC at #1 firing position?
    • Basically until the engine stops spinning. 20-30 seconds approx.
• Starter:
  • Resting voltage = battery voltage
  • Cranking voltage is 10,1–10,5V. Is that enough? It drops from 12.5 to 10?
    • Yes, so quite equal to what the battery voltage says during cranking.
  • Voltage drop measurement: 0,1V of (+) side
    Voltage drop measurement of (-) side: Wasn't able to perform. What is the negative port of the starter? Thought it is grounded by the engine ...  It is. Make sure connections and ground cable are clean and tight.
    • Alright, then I need try again and get good connection with the multimeter somehow.

[Hans]

4 hours ago, awesomade said:

• But it did not seem to fix the starting problem as the cold start let the battery almost die. Really had to crank it for a good amount of time. It has to be the right TDC. Did you see my suggestion about checking choke.
  • It is at TDC. 
    • But is it TDC for the firing stroke?? This was explained  previously: a full firing cycle goes past TDC twice
  • You mean auto choke thing? No, haven't seen your suggestion. But I can make the flap close by pushing the pedal.
  • With car cold, choke flap will usually be open. When you tap the pedal, the flap should snap closed. As the car warms up, you can eventually tap the pedal again to release the choke, or it may start to open by itself. Should end up wide open. Check this.
• Battery is fine: Voltage above 12,5 and during cranking not below at around 10,5V. BTW it's new. 10.5 is not stunning. Are you recharging battery?
  • Yes, completely recharged. Learned that 9,5 and below cranking voltage wouldn't be enough – so assume 10.5V is okay.
  • As I said above, 10.5 is marginal. Some systems may not function at that level.  Without the engine running, battery is not getting charged. You need to do that.
• Fuel: Don't have starter spray to test with, but did it with brake cleaner and no change. Also after some cranking you can smell the gasoline even without the air filter cove removed; removed the carb looks like fuel supply works pretty well. Can you confirm that fuel is not the problem and that smell and visual checks do confirm this in this case? Otherwise I would need to unplug the fuel hose and check the delivery while cranking. How old is the fuel? Old gas does smell different
  • 3 Months, but I put in gasoline stabilizer as well.
  • Gas should be OK
• Carb gasket: One thing I noticed now is, that it seems like the lower carb gasket is letting fuel out. See picture(s) below. Not sure if this is the case, but it is fuel I can confirm. Can this cause starting problems like that? Absolutely. It can also cause the car to catch on fire. You probably need a new gasket, but that looks like it may be coming from further up. Maybe float is not working properly. Which takes us back to rebuilding teh carb but I hate to introduce yet another variable.. And are those orange wire for vacuum? they look pretty scuzzy. Do they fit snuggly? Any cracks?. And that black hose in the last picture - is that vacuum? It looks bad at connection. Is the metal pipe solid? Thats been going on for a while.  
  • Orange, yes, vac; but lines are all good and tested.
  • There is no black hose or line in the picture. It is a lever/linkage.
• Ignition/Spark: I grounded ignition wire from the coil and gives good spark. I grounded spark plug #1 and gives also spark.
  • I measured voltage between disconnected green ignition wire (the one that goes to port (15)) to the coil and ground which gave me 9-10V during cranking. Is that enough? And also not sure if I tested it right? 9-10 is not enough. How long are you cranking? Question is: is the spark at TDC at #1 firing position?
    • Basically until the engine stops spinning. 20-30 seconds approx.
    • OK, but what about my TDC question?
• Starter:
  • Resting voltage = battery voltage
  • Cranking voltage is 10,1–10,5V. Is that enough? It drops from 12.5 to 10?
    • Yes, so quite equal to what the battery voltage says during cranking.
  • Voltage drop measurement: 0,1V of (+) side
    Voltage drop measurement of (-) side: Wasn't able to perform. What is the negative port of the starter? Thought it is grounded by the engine ...  It is. Make sure connections and ground cable are clean and tight.
    • Alright, then I need try again and get good connection with the multimeter somehow.
    • Did you clean the connections at battery and the ground cable as I suggested? 

Running out of colours. The potential  strarting /running problem with the gasket is letting air in. There is plenty of gas available to leak. But you don't want that. But as I have said several times, the leak appears to be also from above the gasket.

For now, order a new gasket. You may need to remove the top cover gasket so get that too.

I know nothing about 123. Did it not come with instructions?

Before you replace it, back to basics on ignition. Once again, make sure #1 is firing at correct TDC ( maybe a few deg defore). That should get the motor started if every thing else is OK.

But by now the engine is terminally flooded, so you need to pull plugs and let it air out. Then pour into each plug hole  a small amount of oil - maybe 3 ml - before trying to start. All that gas will wash to oil off the cyl walls. 

[02sahara]

Okay, I got it started!

Make it quick: Setup of 123 dizzy was not completely right. My fault probably. Might explain it later.

 

But for now back to your info about the terminally flooded engine. Do I need to do your described procedure with the oil? To not damage anything? Or only if it wouldn't start?

 

I just had time for a quick try with the new setup and it immediately started without problems, but had to turn it off and will would so test drives tomorrow.

 

Sorry for the confusion and thank you for the patience. I was really sure I did everything properly. But maybe it let my find the leaking gasket ... Who knows.

Guess that's the second beer now ?

Edited April 21, 2022 by awesomade

[Hans]

As I said above, the flooding washes oil off the cyl walls. A good idea to start with adding a bit of oil thru plug hole to avoid dry start.

[02sahara]

S O L U T I O N

Just for the record – may help the community:

• Adjusting the contact breaker gap respectively dwell angle of the old distributor fixed the hard start/coldstart problem. – There was no gap at all at no point.
  • It also solved the rough idling problem right after cold start where I had to pump the pedal for some time to keep it running.
• Replacing the worn out old distributor (shaft) (with the 123ignition dizzy) got rid of the occasional misfires.

So car starts and runs well now. Initial curve I mapped is the yellow one (page 1; file attached) I figured out and using vacuum advance (not retard). I will try to lift the curve and play around with it to find the optimal one. As most of the members suggested, it might be happy with some more advance, but for now it runs well, no knocking/pinging.

 

Valves are adjusted and I will replace some carb gaskets soon + inline fuel filter + air filter.

Thanks everyone for the support again.

BMW 2002A v1.0.123

Edited May 10, 2023 by awesomade
Attached 123ignition file