123/tune+ Redux

[Chris_B]

I posted on this subject on May 17, and have more to report at this point. I wouldn't believe this if it hadn't happened to me.

 

https://www.bmw2002faq.com/forums/topic/243224-123tune-oh-no/?tab=comments#comment-1343735

 

To recap, my original installation was a tii (002) dizzy with a Pertronix ignitor, driven by an MSD 6 ignition. Everything was happy at this point. But, I thought I would "upgrade" my ignition system by installing a 123 ignition dizzy, and a digital version of the MDS 6. I am a gadget freak and the 123 ignition seemed like the ultimate gadget in this space.

 

Took the car for a short drive and everything seemed to run OK after installation of the 123 Dizzy, except my temp gauge was acting wonky. The needle on the gauge was fluctuating. The next time I drove the car, for a longer distance,  I found that the motor would die with the slightest impact to the system,  such as activating the brake lights or the turn signals. Turning on the headlights had the same effect as turning the ignition key off- motor instantly died.

 

Thinking this had to do with the new digital MSD box, I contacted the MSD support line. The tech suggested that I run a circuit to a power source separate from the ignition switch. I ran a circuit directly from a bus bar that I have next to the battery. This helped (motor no longer dies with turn signals on), but the motor would still die immediately if I turned the headlights on

 

I am running a Braille 15# battery. This has plenty of juice to turn the motor over, and my charging system keeps the voltage >+14V. I also am using HID headlamp bulbs. The setup I am using has two circuits, which from the specs I believe have about 25 amps inrush current, but after the circuit is fired up, the current draw is minimal. So, here are the results.

 

Ignition	Dizzy	Switch	Result
MSD 6A analog	“tii” # 002	Pertronix Ignitor	All good
MSD-6AL digital	“tii” # 002	Pertronix Ignitor	All good
MSD 6A analog	123/tune+	123/tune+	Ignition dies with any load
MSD-6AL digital	123/tune+	123/tune+	Ignition dies with any load
N/A	123/tune+	123/tune+	All good

I don

't know what to make of this, except that there may be some kind of fundamental incompatibility between the 123 ignition and the MSD unit. This seems to be related to a hypersensitivity in the 123 unit to voltage drops, but taking the MSD box out of the picture seems to cure the problem. When I am running the 123 unit without the MSD box in the circuit, I can turn on all accessories, headlights included, with no problems. I really like the 123 adjustability and dashboard, and hate to let this go, but I also believe the MSD box provides a lot of value. Why is this happening? Any input will be appreciated.

 

 

 

[RobC]

How do you have this all wired up? I am running a 123 dizzy with an MSD 6AL, and dont have any issues. Let me head to the garage tomorrow and I can take a few pics of my setup.

[Chris_B]

Thanks. Hard to describe, but I used the same circuit(s) that I used for the pertronix setup. Clearly, there is something subtly screwed up with my wiring, with the sudden die when I turn my headlights on. That can't be right.

[RobC]

Do you also have the tach adapter wired up?

 

Thanks

Rob

[Chris_B]

Yes.

[Dudeland]

1 hour ago, Chris_B said:

I posted on this subject on May 17, and have more to report at this point. I wouldn't believe this if it hadn't happened to me.

 

https://www.bmw2002faq.com/forums/topic/243224-123tune-oh-no/?tab=comments#comment-1343735

 

To recap, my original installation was a tii (002) dizzy with a Pertronix ignitor, driven by an MSD 6 ignition. Everything was happy at this point. But, I thought I would "upgrade" my ignition system by installing a 123 ignition dizzy, and a digital version of the MDS 6. I am a gadget freak and the 123 ignition seemed like the ultimate gadget in this space.

 

Took the car for a short drive and everything seemed to run OK after installation of the 123 Dizzy, except my temp gauge was acting wonky. The needle on the gauge was fluctuating. The next time I drove the car, for a longer distance,  I found that the motor would die with the slightest impact to the system,  such as activating the brake lights or the turn signals. Turning on the headlights had the same effect as turning the ignition key off- motor instantly died.

 

Thinking this had to do with the new digital MSD box, I contacted the MSD support line. The tech suggested that I run a circuit to a power source separate from the ignition switch. I ran a circuit directly from a bus bar that I have next to the battery. This helped (motor no longer dies with turn signals on), but the motor would still die immediately if I turned the headlights on

 

I am running a Braille 15# battery. This has plenty of juice to turn the motor over, and my charging system keeps the voltage >+14V. I also am using HID headlamp bulbs. The setup I am using has two circuits, which from the specs I believe have about 25 amps inrush current, but after the circuit is fired up, the current draw is minimal. So, here are the results.

 

Ignition	Dizzy	Switch	Result
MSD 6A analog	“tii” # 002	Pertronix Ignitor	All good
MSD-6AL digital	“tii” # 002	Pertronix Ignitor	All good
MSD 6A analog	123/tune+	123/tune+	Ignition dies with any load
MSD-6AL digital	123/tune+	123/tune+	Ignition dies with any load
N/A	123/tune+	123/tune+	All good

 

I don

't know what to make of this, except that there may be some kind of fundamental incompatibility between the 123 ignition and the MSD unit. This seems to be related to a hypersensitivity in the 123 unit to voltage drops, but taking the MSD box out of the picture seems to cure the problem. When I am running the 123 unit without the MSD box in the circuit, I can turn on all accessories, headlights included, with no problems. I really like the 123 adjustability and dashboard, and hate to let this go, but I also believe the MSD box provides a lot of value. Why is this happening? Any input will be appreciated.

 

 

 

Your coil may be the problem.  Your primary and secondary resistance on the Jacobs coil is very different from the recommended Blaster that I put with my MSD 6A.   Also, the 123 requires a specific resistance as well. 

 

Here is the quote from the 123 website.  Not sure if yours is ok. 

 

"For 4 cylinder engines you could use the original coil or other coils with a primary resistance of at least 1.0 Ohm. For standard street engines, we advise a "Bosch Blue" or "Beru ZS106" coil. For high rpm engines, a "Bosch red (0 221 119 030)" or "Beru ZS109" is much better."

 

This is the one I have.   It is recommended with the MSD6A

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/msd-8200/overview/

 

VS yours. 

 

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/jac-380672t/overview/

 

Recommended list of coils for the MSD6A. 

 

https://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_coil_compability.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dudeland]

Shit, I think I figured it out.  You need to run a rotor without a resistor in it.   How do I know....  KABOOM !!!! woo hooo.  It is the only time the car left me stranded. 

 

You can make one yourself with a strip of brass and a soldering iron, or get one from I.E. 

http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/item/m10Rrtr.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Dudeland
Added link for I.E

[Chris_B]

I appreciate your input, but have some trouble believing that an out of spec coil could be causing the symptoms I have had. However, at this point I am willing to try anything.

[Jbaumshelter]

+1 on the blue coil. It seems to be the only variable that you have not checked. I installed mine with not problems whatsoever. I guess there could be some problems with the wiring form the LED system but I doubt it. I have seem people mention that when they switched to LED it resulted in all kinds of strange things. 

[Dudeland]

15 minutes ago, Chris_B said:

I appreciate your input, but have some trouble believing that an out of spec coil could be causing the symptoms I have had. However, at this point I am willing to try anything.

What about the Dizzy Rotor? 

 

[Chris_B]

1 hour ago, Jbaumshelter said:

+1 on the blue coil. It seems to be the only variable that you have not checked. I installed mine with not problems whatsoever. I guess there could be some problems with the wiring form the LED system but I doubt it. I have seem people mention that when they switched to LED it resulted in all kinds of strange things. 

I am not using LED headlights, if that is what you are referring to. I am using HID headlights  and have been for years. There is no connection to the ignition system that I can think off.

[Chris_B]

2 hours ago, Dudeland said:

What about the Dizzy Rotor? 

 

I am using whatever came in the 123 dizzy. It doesn’t appear to be a resistor rotor, but I will check it.

[Chris_B]

2 hours ago, Dudeland said:

Your coil may be the problem.  Your primary and secondary resistance on the Jacobs coil is very different from the recommended Blaster that I put with my MSD 6A.   Also, the 123 requires a specific resistance as well. 

 

Here is the quote from the 123 website.  Not sure if yours is ok. 

 

"For 4 cylinder engines you could use the original coil or other coils with a primary resistance of at least 1.0 Ohm. For standard street engines, we advise a "Bosch Blue" or "Beru ZS106" coil. For high rpm engines, a "Bosch red (0 221 119 030)" or "Beru ZS109" is much better."

 

This is the one I have.   It is recommended with the MSD6A

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/msd-8200/overview/

 

VS yours. 

 

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/jac-380672t/overview/

 

Recommended list of coils for the MSD6A. 

 

https://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_coil_compability.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

I ordered an MSD coil from Summit. I should be irrelevant to the 123 dizzy what kind of coil is being run, since the MSD unit drives the coil and only uses the dizzy as a switch to trigger the ignition..

[Simeon]

There is no functional difference between the MSD being triggered by a Pertronix, the 123 or even points. 

 

You have tested all of the various combinations but there is enough disruption in the way things are wired that you could be putting a wiring fault in place with one configuration and taking it off with the next. 

 

How is your MSD wired?

 

Heavy red and black supply and ground run directly to battery terminals?

 

Nothing but orange and black wires from the MSD connected to the coil terminals?

 

How is the ground on the 123 blue wire?

 

Have you got a diode in circuit with your tacho adapter wiring? 

 

I would take a double (triple?) look at the wiring to make sure everything is as required. I would also disconnect the tacho adapter and tach from the circuit just to see.  Those things are so Heath Robinson. 

 

 

 

[Chris_B]

Acknowledged. I know how the MSD works. The connections are fairly straightforward. I have not had to use a diode with my tach adapter. 

 

I like your suggestion to take the tach out of the circuit- would reduce the complexity of the circuit quite a bit. Will give that a try..