Starting issues

[BimBim2oo2]

I replaced my wiring harness last night. Have everything wired in, all is in working order except no crank. 

 

I have 12v at the solenoid (black/white wire) tested this with meter while had another person turn key to start; battery cable attached to solenoid as should be. I have checked for the infamous seatbelt interlock; bypassed that by running the 12v (black white wire) directly to the ignition (read that on another thread) still nothing. When the key is turned to start I hear nothing from the solenoid, typically you would hear at least a "clicking" sound when voltage is applied?

 

I have wrestled with the idea that I should have a connector on the bottom spade of the solenoid, but from what I have read I shouldn't. This is for a ballast that goes to the coil from my understanding. However even if this is not connected I should still be getting something at the starter/solenoid. 

 

Im looking for ideas for things to check. I have gone through what seems like hundreds of threads and checked off what others of suggested in those, retraced my wiring with schematic and gone through my manual. My manual made reference that if there is power at the starter, faulty motor; field coils earthed. What do they mean by "field coils earthed"?

 

Im kind of leaning towards the solenoid is fried, however still have to check that.

 

I did see that the A/T cars had a starter relay. Could someone enlighten me on where exactly this is located? I doubt my car has one but would still like to double check. I read on another members thread that he had one in his MT car and that was the cause of his starting woes. 

 

Thanks 

 

Josh 

[Simeon]

Field coils earthed would refer to 'does the motor have an adequate ground?'

 

not a bad question, what have you got for a battery negative strap? Where is it connected?

[BimBim2oo2]

5 minutes ago, Simeon said:

Field coils earthed would refer to 'does the motor have an adequate ground?'

 

not a bad question, what have you got for a battery negative strap? Where is it connected?

Thats what I thought, just never heard it phrased like that. 

 

I have a ground cable running from the block to the side of the engine bay, another that runs from the block to the alternator. The cable that connects battery to solenoid is your typical battery cable. I double checked my grounding as well. Brown is ground, everything looks tighty there, unless there needs to be an additional one? 

 

I will snap some pictures in the morning and share. 

[Hans]

I think you'd know by now if there was no ground strap and starter motor engaged.

If you're getting 12V at solenoid when key is turned, sounds like relays are not an issue. Solenoid should click at least; lack of starter motor activity would point to other issues.

Standard Diagnostic Question #1: did it work before you launched this project?

If so, what changed?

[BimBim2oo2]

1 hour ago, Hans said:

I think you'd know by now if there was no ground strap and starter motor engaged.

If you're getting 12V at solenoid when key is turned, sounds like relays are not an issue. Solenoid should click at least; lack of starter motor activity would point to other issues.

Standard Diagnostic Question #1: did it work before you launched this project?

If so, what changed?

 

I fried my old wiring harness, wire to the alternator got shorted to ground (there was lots of smoke involved and a bit of fire). I was working on my alternator after a long day at work. Shortly after getting started forgot I realized I forgot to disconnect the battery, stopped working on the alternator, set it on the front battery tray, not even halfway back to the car to disconnect the battery smoke starts coming from the bay. Was able to get it all under control and all that appeared damaged was the front harness.  Thinking this may have toasted the solenoid, my alternator very well could be fried as well. I replaced the harness Friday evening, turn the key to on everything works, even things that did not work before i.e. washer pump ( i was excited about that one)

 

I pulled the old harness out, along with a bucket full of AUX wiring the PO had installed; mostly stereo wiring, few wires running to secondary gauges.

 

The car was running prior to the old harness getting fried. 

 

The only thing that has changed is the removal of all the garbage wiring and replacement harness. Unless a component got fried when the short occurred. Im hoping to pull the solenoid and take it to work tomorrow and do some bench testing on it. Im kind of looking at this one step at a time. At the very least I should be getting some activity i.e. clicking, at the solenoid when 12v is applied. There very well could be other issues as I move along. 

 

Whats the story with that bottom spade tab on the solenoid? 

Edited May 7, 2017 by BimBim2oo2

[Hans]

I think that spade feeds whatever lockout relay might be used. The 2002tii site has all sorts of wiring diagrams.

 

You get a click when 12V is applied to solenoid. I'm wondering about the battery if you shorted it out. Perhaps boost with another? Do headlights work?

[BimBim2oo2]

1 hour ago, Hans said:

I think that spade feeds whatever lockout relay might be used. The 2002tii site has all sorts of wiring diagrams.

 

You get a click when 12V is applied to solenoid. I'm wondering about the battery if you shorted it out. Perhaps boost with another? Do headlights work?

Yes, everything works with exception the car is not starting. I measured 12v at the solenoid from the wire that is fed off the ignition. Also have 12v at the battery cable that is connected to solenoid. Battery could be an issue but would have to load test it, I see this as a unlikely reason though. 

[Hans]

I would expect a weak battery could put out enough to click solenoid before tiring out.  But maybe not.  I've had old batteries that showed over 12, but folded almost immediately a load was applied.You're seeing 12.5V-ish?

Off the top, I can't see how your starter got fried. But if its getting a full jolt of 12.5V, and is grounded, it should click. The other test is to connect a cable to the other big post on the starter (that connects to inside) and then touch other end to + post, being VERY careful, to see if motor works.

[BimBim2oo2]

33 minutes ago, Hans said:

I would expect a weak battery could put out enough to click solenoid before tiring out.  But maybe not.  I've had old batteries that showed over 12, but folded almost immediately a load was applied.You're seeing 12.5V-ish?

Off the top, I can't see how your starter got fried. But if its getting a full jolt of 12.5V, and is grounded, it should click. The other test is to connect a cable to the other big post on the starter (that connects to inside) and then touch other end to + post, being VERY careful, to see if motor works.

 

 

Its the solenoid. Pulled it off and hooked it to a power supply, it engages but it is very weak almost non existentt; I compared it against a starter I have laying around for a E21. Dont want to replace the entire starter unless I have to and if I do I will use the E21 starter. For now gonna try and hunt down a solenoid. 

[Hans]

Odd that it decided to conk out a this moment...

[BimBim2oo2]

17 minutes ago, Hans said:

Odd that it decided to conk out a this moment...

When the harness shorted to ground it fried everything within the front loom, the solenoid was part of that. I am hopeful my starter motor is ok; the solenoid was not engaged when the short occurred so it did not have contact with the motor itself; that or i chalk it up to witchcraft... either way the thing is nothing more than a paperweight now. Another forum member has a solenoid they are willing to part with; hopefully it will solve the issue and I can get the car off for rust repair this week. Otherwise I will have some late evenings after work 

[BimBim2oo2]

Was the starter. Replaced it with a E21 starter, good as new. My wiring job was a success. Even my washer pump works now!!! Well kind of...

[Hans]

Have a beer. Be respectful of your battery.