Mucci

21 hours ago, Vicleonardo1 said:

Mucci are you contemplating adapting some Motorcycle throttle bodies for the 02? I believe some may have done that with some Mikuni's ( or was that carbs...?)but I could be mistaken. I would think that would be pretty neat however. 

I have absolutely limited engine knowledge. But wouldn't a lot of the work be creating/adapting the fuel rail, throttle linkage Adding and adapting sensors, the harnesses, adjusting timing, and customizing your ECM while on the dyno? 

I think some would pay for the "kit" to reduce amount of time and effort on their part, which they would be willing to pay for. 

 

Keep us posted on what you decide to do and your results. 

 

I am a guy that can only afford a carburetor right now, but would love the ease and convenience of EFI. 

 

Cheers! 

 

I haven't made any decisions yet, I was just referring to what they did in that video above; using the Hyabusa 1300 throttle bodies. They, like almost all motorcycle throttle operations, are cable driven, so not much work adapting that aside from a simple bracket to route it. They also have the fuel rail and TPS built into the bank:

A set up like that, including the injectors, rail, TPS, and linkage goes for $150-200 on ebay in good condition. Looks like the injectors are 24# so would be a good match for a 160hp 4cyl setup. 

17 hours ago, jrhone said:

 

$1k?  Triple that.  Haltech System with ITBs are $2k for parts.  Not including labor or tuning....If you have a bone stock motor, you need to go with high compression pistons, cam, exhaust...Thats probably about $2k minimum, but more like $4k for motor work, and $3k for the EFI system..that will get you to 150-160hp...

 

Power isn't cheap...

 

The beauty of EFi is the tunability and power delivery.  It also can start you down the Turbo path....

 

 

My point was it was a 10hp gain on a motor that already had a bunch of money thrown at it, and that it was really more like a 30hp gain for that money if you're starting from a stock engine  (I.e. 100hp)

I do my own motor and fabrication work aside from the machining so I guess we're coming at it from a difference perspective. That Haltec kit above includes almost everything for the $1500. That can be done for a lot less with a motorcycle throttle body bank. The Haltec Elite 550 they use is $430 with harness. A set of Hyabusa throttle bodies with injectors can be had for around $60-80 on eBay. Dyno tuning is around $200/hr. I realize there are a lot more peripherals to the system but buying a bolt on kit isn't the most economic. Sure if you farm it all out you'll pay through the nose but it can definitely be done for less than $3k if you do a lot of the work yourself and are smart about assembling the parts needed. Paying "$7k" for 160hp just doesn't make sense to me. 

5 hours ago, jrhone said:

 

All that for 10hp?!  Lol.  And that was wit ITBs and Halltech EFI on a high compression motor.  And yes that was 131 at the wheels so probably around 160 at the crank. I guess that’s about the max a 2 liter 8 valve normally aspirated engine is gonna give you on the street.  So 140s with the Weber siderdrafts and 150s with ITBs and EFI. Interesting.  

Yea I agree. That's probably $1k+ for 10hp. But if you're talking about from a stock motor that's a 32hp bump for like, $2k maybe? $2500?

Also that's 150 CHP* with the Webers and 160 CHP* with the EFI ITBs. 160 crank gives the 02 the same power to weight as an E36 M3 (US spec) by my calculations...

.075 hp/lbs in the E36 M

.074 hp/lbs in the '02

...or the same as dropping in a stock M20

1 hour ago, Simeon said:

For the effort involved in converting to KFish mechanical injection you might as well go with an electronic system that runs your ignition as well. This will  give you options for the future that wouldn’t easily be supported by mechanical injection. 

 

Ultimately as you move towards your idea of perfection with your induction system (which could be by carb by the way) other things like cam, ignition and compression will start to limit the engine. Electronic injection will accomodate any changes that you wish to make here. 

Ahh! I wasn't aware the TII's fuel injection was mechanical without ignition timing. I agree, that does sound limiting for the future. I was under the impression if I went through the hassle of converting to FI I'd be converting to a system that could grow with future performance mods. 

Considering I already have the 32/36 and it looks like the linkage kit and dual pumper jet is only $60 I think I'll probably go that route. Down the line I'd like to supercharge the M10 but there's a lot to be done first and it sounds like standalone will be needed. This dual pumper Weber sounds like a good option for the time being. Thanks for the info guys.

21 minutes ago, airborne85 said:

sync link a 32/36...add the two port pump jet, used on the 38/38.....seeing that the sync link makes both barrels open at same.....this should make your 32/36...funner

 

 

ira

Effectively making it a 36 all the time? Sounds interesting. Im guessing the pump jet is similar to a motorcycle pumper carb where it shoots extra fuel in just off throttle to compensate for the bog that would happen if you quickly snapped the throttle open with a bigger carb?? I'm much more familiar with moto carbs...

35 minutes ago, Vicleonardo1 said:

Have you thought about swapping the Weber to a 38/38? 

Would that yield more performance on a stock motor than going FI?

Performance is the only criteria here. I've rebuilt many carbs and do all my own mechanical work. I'm just new to 2002's and curious what the best performance option is. 

Sounds like FI is the way to go here. 

I'm curious which route would yield better performance on a stock M10: a Weber 32/36 carburetor or swapping to TII fuel injection?

My car currently has the 32/36 on it, however I haven't been able to drive it since buying the car. I bought it in "fix-up" shape so I haven't really had a chance to get a feel for the Weber. The reason I'm asking is because the Weber needs a rebuild. I could go through the rebuild process, or for about $200 I could swap to TII fuel injection. I consider both options pretty low effort and low cost so I'm wondering which would produce better power.

Nice Camden blower! Anybody seen dyno figures on that setup, or an M45 setup? Also, anyone know how much air the Camden blower moved? I never saw any real specs on it from the photocopied brochures aside from the claimed "30% increase" ...which isn't much if we're talking a 99hp baseline. I'm hoping they put down more than 130hp.

4 hours ago, Vicleonardo1 said:

Here are some prior discussions.  One replacement done by the amazing Paul W..

 

 

 

Great references, thanks! Looks like this is pretty common. It looks like my car also suffered from some sort of failure resulting in brake fluid getting in there and stripping the paint. The pass. side looks great still. 

...something something a quarter acre at a time. 

14 minutes ago, 2joejoe2 said:

an adapter manifold for the M45 to maybe a 3in inlet and outlet tube would be so useful and not just 02 guys would buy that.  

 

Kinda like what this guy is doing 

https://leroysroadster.wordpress.com/throttle-bodies-and-supercharger/

 

I actually have an m45 sitting in my basement with the hopes of someday doing this.

 

 

The more I look at the available OEM Eaton M45's the more I'm thinking it could be difficult to mount a carb to them. EFI may be the way to go like you're talking. 

The benefit of the Camden blower is the inlet and outlet oppose each other, so on one side you bolt the manifold and the other side you bolt the carb. The M45 blowers from the Mercedes and Mini's have the outlet on the long side and the inlet on the rear short side or right next to the outlet (like you linked to). There'd have to be some fancy duct work to mount a carb to either of those inlets. 

39 minutes ago, jimk said:

I'm talking an "all in cost" for an installation.  There has to be enough of a demand.  Making one part cheaply does not mean there is enough of a demand to go into a boosted setup, especially with the risk of damage and hacking up their car.  So how many 02ers out there would put a setup on is the question.

"Has to be enough demand" is dependent on my sunk costs. The sunk cost of designing adapter brackets that can easily be made to order is very low compared to designing and making castings. It would cost me no more to make one kit for myself than it would to make 20 kits. Though I appreciate your concern for my financial well being :)

32 minutes ago, 2joejoe2 said:

There was a project blog on this forum where a guy was doing an eaton M45 blow through set up to dual delorto carbs.  it looked pretty simple and super cool. I can't find the post however if I google search it the pics show up on pinterest 

 

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/96545985745195888/

Jesus that's pretty. 

35 minutes ago, Vicleonardo1 said:

If someone can track down an old Camden supercharger for the M10, could that be used as a template? 

 

On "Roadkill" someone retrofitted an Aisin supercharger from a Toyota Previa. (it blew up much like most everything on Roadkill).  9-10 Psi claimed boost.

Could give you the cool "Mad Max" solenoid activated supercharger...

 

http://www.roadkill.com/treasury-junkyard-supercharging-24-hours-lemons/

That's the Aisin AMR500. Very cheap at $150 used, but too small. They're typically fitted to .5L-1.6L applications. Output per revolution is 500cc. Your boost would be very limited by it's max RPM. I suppose you could run 2 at once with dual DCOE's

"On a 1600cc VW engine, with the blower being driven 2.1:1 with the crank, it would produce approximately 5 psi, but the engine RPM must be limited to 8000 rpm."

Output per revolution on the M45 is 750cc. 

11 minutes ago, jireland2002 said:

You might look at the one used on the old Nissan Frontier

Looks like those came with the M62. In addition to what I said above the M45 is also a bit cheaper. They can be had for $200-250 used. The M62's are closer to $450.

2 minutes ago, jimk said:

Have you done a market study for this commercial project?  Unit pricing on 10,000 hula hoops is a lot different than for 10.

Can't tell if you're serious or talking to me? I waterjet single parts all the time for custom motorcycle applications. I just had 4 12" brackets cut out of 1/4" aluminum and it was $75, including the material cost. It's cheap!

5 hours ago, GazM3 said:

Supercharging would be great on an m10.  It would need to be intercooled to get the best out of it.  Perhaps a redesigned intake manifold incorporating a water to air plenum would be very useful, so would some bracketing, but fitting it all in will be the tricky thing.   The Eaton 45 is pretty available.  Perhaps if it will fit look at the Eaton 62. 

 

I agree with supercharging.  Yes not the most efficient but rather than dulling the noises it enhances them.  

I don't believe it would need to be intercooled. Intake temps aren't very high like turbocharging. You'd probably rob more power than it was worth unless you were running very high boost. At that point you probably exceed the M45 redline anyways. I used to have a T3 turbo setup on a 2.0L 8v VW motor running 10psi. I tried both intercooled and not. It made significantly more power non-intercooled. Forcing the air through an intercooler robbed a ton of the already low boost pressure. 

Again, my goal is the most economic and easiest setup possible. Ideally this kit can be fitted to a stock displacement motor in a low boost configuration. In that scenario the M45 is a better match. These were fitted to motors between 1.6L - 2.3L (Mini Cooper S - Merc C230). According to an employee at Eaton the M62 is better matched for 2.0-2.5L displacements. Encompassing our displacement yes, but just at the fore end. My theory is in a low boost setup the parasitic loss off the larger blower wouldn't be worth it.  

If anyone has experience using the M62 on an M10 and thinks it's a better match for this application I'm all ears. 

3 hours ago, TobyB said:

In the old days, we'd find someone with a small casting setup in the back yard, and have a couple

of relatively simple manifolds made up.  Someone else would mill them, and viola, hard part done.

 

Packaging is always the winner/loser on these, and it's just work and resources: mock up the physical location,

get everything routed, rough in a manifold, try it, modify it, try again, repeat.  This can vary from pretty easy

(a supercharger should be) to pretty hard (twin watercooled intercooled turbos).

 

Personally, I don't think you're going to be able to make this work with any of the available manifolds-

but maybe adapting flanges will work.  Don't forget the early 320 manifold!

 

Fuel? port injection.  Not hard, megasquirt or any of the more polished commercial alternatives, and 

the end user can resolve that.

 

There are a few conversions on here- I vaguely remember one with an SU!

 

Go for it!

 

t

 

I understand it's possible to do low volume castings but that adds quite a bit of production cost, R&D development, and shipping cost (if we're talking about making a kit for resale). If I was making this for myself I'd just fabricate a manifold from scratch. This is why I brought up the adapter brackets. Ideally they could be waterjet from flat plate, which is super cheap to make and easy to ship. 

I'm picturing a "kit" that gives people the adapters needed to bolt up a combination of easy to source OEM parts (M45, intake mani, injector runner & rail etc.) Trying to make this as compact, economical and plug&play as possible.

4 hours ago, Stevenc22 said:

Intercooling the Eaton would be nice but unnecessary. My Acura RSX ran a Eaton supercharger without intercooler for years adding 100hp+.

 

This project solely comes down to fuel delivery. Making a bracket and adapting an Eaton to fit is not the problem. Its putting a carb or fuel injection in the middle that is the problem!

I don't see how it would be anymore difficult than a turbo setup. Either bolt a carb to the end (and eliminate the need for the adapter, tii runners and stand alone management) or a MAF w/ standalone. 

...maybe you;d still need standalone management with the carb to control ignition. Not sure. I've never done a boosted carb setup, only EFI. 

I'm researching for a supercharger setup on my M10. It seems like the best match for a reliable daily is the Eaton M45. (Let's not mention the T-word if we can. I'm a fan of NA-like power delivery). I'm looking at ways of making this as economical as possible without sacrificing quality - that is to say a step above a "junkyard" / beater setup. I'm also an industrial designer and fabricator and would be happy to design and produce some parts that the community can benefit from. 

I'm trying to think up ways of making supercharging an M10 much easier and more accessible. The Eaton M45's are pretty readily available. The hurdles seem to be around finding / having to fabricate mounting - specifically the intake manifold. The carbed intake manifold would seem to have it's mounting surface in the right location to mount the M45. It'd be much easier to design and waterjet an adapter bracket to go from one to the other than to make a manifold. Could we not also make a bracket to adapt the tii's injector runners pre-carb manifold for an EFI setup?

I'm posting this to leverage the M10 SC knowledge of the forum. Although I have the ability to design and replicate these things I'm fairly new to these motors so I'm eager to hear why this may not work before investing the time and money into figuring it out.

So in theory: M10 > adapter > tii injector runners > adapter > carb manifold > adapter > M45

...eager to hear what you guys have to say.  

Some photos...

I'm working on getting a '75 2002 back on the road. I noticed the frame rail that's visible in the drivers front wheel well has some rot under it. I then saw someone was selling frame members on craigslist. Are these frame rails removable? That would make welding in a support panel MUCH easier.

You don't happen to have the front door cards for sale too do you?

Ahh, I didn't realize the hinges were adjustable until I took the door cards off to grease the regulators. Adjusting the sag out of the doors helped tremendously. It looks like the reason for the binding pressure in the driver's door also has a bit to do with the shoddy door card revamp by the previous owner. It's pushing against the edge of the dash. I'll have to address that later.

Thanks for the tips.