Birdie

On 6/1/2024 at 9:38 AM, '76mintgrün'02 said:

It would be interesting to document where your timing is set now, before changing things.

@'76mintgrün'02   After you suggested documenting my advance curve I did a bit more reading and kept finding your graph paper advance curves everywhere (you have some great threads out there). I, therefore, followed suite... with far fewer data points..

First, I can't help but think my max advance seems higher than all previously suggested curves. If folks agree, does that mean I need to bend the limiters or something else?

I have been using ported vacuum since removing the smog equipment so I took this opportunity to switch back to manifold vacuum. I set my timing to the recommended 25° at 1400rpm (there were other suggestions but went with this one until I hear back from the group). It needed only the tiniest adjustment to meet this spec. I must say, it seems to be running very, very well with this new setup. 

I should add that my idle screw maxed out at 1800rpm so I had to get a helper to manually throttle up to the higher rpm's. Is this suspect? Something I should change? 

Lastly, my timing mark definitely jumps around at the higher rpm's. Folks mentioned that is likely my aging distributor.

I would appreciate any thoughts on my findings. Thanks.

@John76

"Then check the BB (25-degree BTDC mark) without vacuum advance and note the rpm."

(To confirm - this means that I will need find and mark my currently unmarked BB)

"Increase rpm to find the max advance (no vacuum). Should be approx.. 38 degrees BTDC (3 static + 10  mech + 25 adv.)."

"Cruise (light load) = 51-53 deg. BTDC (not to worry...this is OK) ... cool running and great fuel economy"

"WOT (heavy load) = 38 deg. BTDC ... max power when needed."

These last three raise a question. In your methodology the max advance is not at max load? It seemed that in all other suggested methodologies (and my chart above) I would reach max advance (51-53 BTDC)  at ~3500rpm. However, in your scenario I will reach max advance at light load (~2500rpm) and then it will retreat to 38 BTDC at higher RPMs (~3500rpm)?

A) Do I have that correct? I see quite a few advance charts on this site and I don't recall any of them curing back down at higher RPMs.

B ) Can you explain this behavior? 

This is quite a twist for me as I was prepared to bend my limiting stops to attain the 38 BDTC but it sounds like that is not the case.

On a note related to earlier in this thread:

Although I don't have a dwell meter I did measure the gaps on my points and my findings are:

factory gap = .0016

current gap = .0012

Do you recommend setting my gap to factory?

On 6/1/2024 at 3:38 PM, Mark92131 said:

Is that yellow mark on the line and the "O", part of the "OT" visible in your new picture?  If the yellow spot is on the TDC line, then you verify if the rotor is pointed to #1 spark plug lead in the cap and you can take of the valve cover and verify if the mark on the front of the cam lines up with the oil bar and both valves for cylinder #1 are closed.  If these are correct, then you are at TDC on the compression stroke. 

@Mark92131 This verification process was perfect and frankly fun to see it all line up. It was truly an Ah Ha moment. Thanks. 

Indeed, my yellow mark is TDC / OT.

Which means my current ported vacuum advance curve is the blue line in the graph above.

However, now that I have all of this new advice about setting the timing, I plan to start over and convert my timing to a manifold vacuum. I will report back soon.  Thanks everyone.

19 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

If your engine smells gassy and your fouling plugs I think you need to address this before worrying about your timing. What plugs are you running m10's don't run well with platinum or iridium plugs and tend to foul quickly.

@Son of Marty this might be better to spin on to another thread because I am very interested in your comment that my timing won't address my gassy smell and fouled plugs. I was under the impression that while gas/foul could be lots of things, timing, valves would be a good place to start. 

I currently have Bosch WR7DC (+1) - Spark Plugs Nickel in the car. My wires are the brown Bosch (I think they are stock) and honestly, not only are they questionable, they don't seat very well on the plug ends.  Let me know your thoughts.

I am off to finally determine if my yellow mark is Z or OT and then set timing from there accordingly.  Also, plan to document the current advance before I monkey it up.

Pic updated above.

First of all. Thank you.

Secondly, please be aware that my ignorance knows no bounds. So, before I post a well thought out response, I'd like to verify my OT/TDC and my BB. 
 

I have a yellow mark on my flywheel and it appears to be just to the driver's side of a BB when viewed through the peep hole. If you can confirm that is what I see in the picture and that this is 25d from OT/TDC, correct?

Which means I need to subtract 25 from my chart above (new line in red below). This would put my max advance currently around 30d instead of 55. Again, this was done with the ported vacuum so I intend to redo everything with manifold vacuum. 

I do not believe I have any other marks on my flywheel that would be visible with a timing light - ie TDC - I could be wrong. Once I have cleared this up I will be well on my way to making a plan to make a plan.

Thanks for your patience.

Resurrecting this thread for those out there that also felt like it petered out just when I thought my answer was forthcoming. I have never set my timing but have read just about every thread on the forum I could find getting ready to do so. I just need a little more information/confirmation before I go start spinning my dizzy around.

I gather that timing specs vary wildly because of model, smog equipment, smog delete, etc.

Here is the context and variables of my car:

When I purchased a year ago (it had been sitting in a garage for 18 years) I had the PO take it to a shop for a baseline dust off. It received new points, condenser, etc. All of the distributor attention you would expect - performed by a very qualified mechanic specializing in classic European cars. I say this bc I do not have a dwell meter. However, I would assume that he set the dwell per the specs of the distributor.

BTW - for those of you out there that are interested in learning this part of your car do as suggested above and get an Innova 5568. I accidentally bought a 3568 before I knew better and it doesn't have dwell... I will remedy this soon because I'd like to be self-sufficient in this area.

Okay, so moving on from the dwell.

He also set the timing. However, I upon receiving the car I promptly deleted the smog equipment. I kept things in order by tweaking fuel-mixture, idles, etc. It runs nicely but is very gassy. Plugs are fouled. I also drove it 4k miles in one year and adjusted the valves.. Needless to say - it is time to get a new baseline

Distributor - Bosch distributor (0231170164) which I believe is stock (but I've wrong before.. just this week, on this forum).

I am lucky enough that my TDC was already painted a very convenient bright yellow. I am actually not sure how anyone could used a timing light without this paint mark on TDC.

I am currently in camp Ported Vacuum - although @John76 is correct in that the original diagrams show manifold. But with smog gone, who knows. 

I did an advance curve:

So, the question is - where should I be setting my timing? At what RPM and at what degrees?

And because I am completely new to this, am I to assume that I simply loosen the bolt on the distributor shaft collar and rotate it.

Hopefully I didn't leave anything out. I love that these threads can get quite broad and theoretical but sometimes a guy like me shows up and has to ask which bolt to loosen and which way to turn something. 

On 5/28/2024 at 10:40 AM, tech71 said:

Do your  Vins match?

 

Only that my 76 (both) have the style with the rubber coupler and bracket attached to the intake manifold.

Glad you got it sorted anyway.

I dont see any bolts ?

 

So my delay in answering these questions was with good reason. I had always thought that my VIN's do match (PO said so). However, your subtle question got me thinking and - as folks may have noticed - since this post, I have been another thread seeking confirmation on my VINs. Turns out.... NO. My VIN's do not match. You have opened my eyes.

Then on closer inspection - you are right again - there are no bolts. Looking at attached image - I am not sure why I thought I had an "A" guide tube when apparently I have a "B" guide tube. Many others on who have chimed in have a "C" guide tube.

Great questions @tech71 Thank you for throwing these inquiries out there.

Indeed, now that this is settled, I am planning a round II, deeper dive to find the other block casting information listed in the article. I will certainly hand transcribe said numbers to my computer - no more image copy-to-text. 

p.s. I am a little sad bc I had always been under the impression that I had matching numbers (PO had said so).. 

27 minutes ago, Mark92131 said:

 

Decoder is correct, you typed in 2711025.

 

Mark92131

Total embarrassment! I actually used iPhone copy image- to-text and then pasted into the decoder. What a complete technology fail on my part. Subsequent VIN's I typed by hand.

Okay it seems fairly settled that my engine was replaced at some point. I will dig through all of the service receipts that came with the car. Thanks everyone.

1. Stamped into the right inner fender next to the fresh air plenum. <NA>

2. Stamped onto a metal VIN plate applied to the top of the right inner fender, fore of the firewall but aft of the right front strut mount: 2741025

3. Stamped onto a small metal VIN plate attached to a crash pad on the top of the steering column: 2741025

4. Punched into a paper stick-on label applied to the rear-facing panel of the driver’s door: 2741025

5. The engine number-VIN boss on the original engine block: BLANK

Does your 76 have round taillights? NO

Is your replacement fender originally white?

It doesn't appear so but I can investigate further. All dealer paperwork says Polaris. 

Again, 76 base 2002. Likely just a mistake in the Columbian decoder?

<running out to driveway to check all these locations> will report back.

thanks!

😪 I have always been under the impression that I had matching numbers. But alas, the mysteries never end with my car so.. I'll get over it. As per the fender VIN, I do know the car had its share of parking lot fender benders along the way.  I have the records for any number of new panels and paint jobs.

Unofficially, I have a 1976 / 49 State (non-tii), originally sold in Montana. Still have the receipts, etc.

The VIN on the passenger fender is 

2711025

The bmw decoder (great name) returns the following:

I guess my little angel is a fighter with grit, just doing what she has to do, in order to survive.

I understand there is a VIN under the driver's seat. Can you confirm that and be specific where I will find it.

If I have to pull the seat out it will be a bit before I get to that. Not too long though - parts go on and off my car pretty consistently so it's only a matter of time before the seats are out... again.

On 6/25/2023 at 10:22 AM, John76 said:

Here is where to find the VIN on the engine.

 

@John76 I do not have a VIN on the engine in this location, where the starter is bolted. It is completely smooth. I think I read that BMW removed VIN's from this location if engine was remanufactured.

A) any idea if this is true?

B ) are there other locations on the motor with the VIN stamped?

I'd like to see if it matches my fender VIN... Which, btw, turned up something fishy when I looked it up online here:

So many good suggestions. Thank you. I am making a wishlist now and will report back for more input. 

@John76 very good question. If the clamps were stock then this is one of the only variations from stock on my car that I know. I have all of the service records and can go through them at some point to see if the modification is in there. Any idea if switching out this guide tube is something that BMW mechanics did to these cars along the way? I have nothing to base my preference on but I think I like my setup better 🙂.. then again I am the guy that was just hitting it with a hammer so... what do I know.

A question for the folks that know about such things.

My car probably hasn't seen a new suspension component in decades, if ever. 

The drive has as much suspension as a roller skate.

While, I would love to drop the subframes and do a complete refresh it's just not in the cards right now. 

However, we drive this car a lot and on some great NorCal roads so I'd like to proceed with some sort of upgrade/update on the suspension.

I need to mention that I get some rubbing on the back of the front wheel wells when I go into a corner with even a little bit force exerted on the inside wheel (see pic).

I should also mention that I am completely wheel/tire illiterate and I'd have no problem coming out the other end of this project with the same obliviousness as I went in with. Tires and wheels just don't do it for me. That said, I currently have 195/60R14 86H on 6 x 14 bottle caps. I bring this up because I would love this project to focus on suspension and not tires/wheels however, if the two are intertwined I will do whatever is necessary.

My question is two.five-fold:

a) what components should I replace to get the best bang for the buck (a list would be great). I'd like to look in the wheel wells and see a nice, clean setup top to bottom if possible. 

a1) if I plan to drop the subframe and replace bushing in the future is it silly to try and replace some key bushing now bc they will have to be sacrificed to remove them later (a waste of time and money)?

b) should I expect those upgrades/updated components to address my tire rubbing.

I know there are lots of great posts on performing this work so I don't need too much guidance on execution..

I just don't know what my directive should be.

Apologies if this is just too vague. That happens when folks are new to things like this. I am happy to provide novice ramblings of what I think I should do but not sure it would help.

@NickVyse for the big win from South of France!

I actually had to put a socket with an extender on it and tap it gently+ with a mallet. It didn't go easily and I hated hitting it with metal on metal but A) it was hard to reach with fuel connection to carb, etc. and B ) when I used a softer extension (a second mallet) it acted as a hole punch and left bits of plastic in the guide tube, which had me pretty freaked out.. alls well that ends well.

That is a huge load off. Now on to an oil pressure gauge which I will research on a separate thread.

Yes almost 9 3/8 exactly.

Yes, I absolutely need an oil pressure gauge.

Yes, I also noticed that small gap in the guide tube.

Okay, setting aside the oil pressure light, I’d like to have a dipstick a can trust.  How is that gap on the dipstick guide tube remedied? Is that a threaded fit?

I bought my car a year ago and as part of the purchase it was taken to a very qualified (European mechanic) for a quick once over. He topped off fluids, etc. The dipstick always read a little low but in the safe zone. I would add a little oil along the way but it was always low. About a month ago I started to get a flickering oil light at 4300 rpm. I had been driving it much more spiritedly than that for sometime with no issue. I decided to do a oil/filter change to get a full baseline read on my car's oil needs (I don't really know how much he put in etc.) I put in 4.5 quarts and it barely hit the minimum oil line and I mean barely. I added a little more and almost no rise in oil level. I approached 5 quarts and still barely touching minimum. This got me a bit worried so I pulled the plug and trued it up at 4.5 quarts (which reads at the minimum oil level on the dipstick - barely).

I have half a mind to just keep adding oil until it is in the mid-to-upper oil level read on the stick. Then go out driving to see if I can reproduce the oil flicker at 4300rpm.

I would then at least know if the two issues are related or not.

I sure hope they are related bc the oil light has me concerned.

- 1976 Stock.

- Dipstick Guide Tube seems to be in perfect working order (it's the bolt-on w no clamps - see pic)

- Dipstick is 17" from tip to rubber stopper per @John76 in a separate post

Any thoughts on this?

While I did not make it back to my friends house for another round of troubleshooting, a seasoned mechanic did get involved and the verdict is in. I hate to say "everyone gets a trophy" but... honestly this car had just about every issue that was mentioned on this thread:

- @'76mintgrün'02 mechanical fuel pump pushing ~8psi (and with no dashpot or return...)

- @'76mintgrün'02 while the rotor passed the 'snap-back' test, it turns out that this dizzy had the wrong cap. Therefore, it would only pass this test with the cap off. When the cap was on the rotor was being restricted. As a matter of fact, the cap was not only keeping the rotor from going back into place after acceleration, it had worn out the contact plate.

- @John76 the floats were too high and had to be set tot he proper height

- and several other less critical issues that were addressed.

It was a very interesting issue(s) to troubleshoot. Thanks for all the input everyone.

14 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

When you twist the rotor and let is go does it snap back to the idle position or does it get hung up.

yes. the rotor snaps back into place quickly.

10 hours ago, John76 said:

Also check that the choke is functioning properly.

Could you explain to me how the choke would come into play when the car is fully warmed up and running at 4k+ rpm then decelerating? I was under the impression that once warm the choke linkage and butterflies have been removed from the equation.

thanks in advance.

Thank you for all of the input. I have just returned from the patient '02. I didn't expect to really cure the issue but to simply gather more information. Well fixing it would have been nice.

I should mention that all of my prior assumptions went out the window.

1. let the car warm up. it doesn't really seem to stall consistently until warm. make sure it is still happening. high rpm -> deceleration -> stall

2. added oil to the distributor advance.  high rpm -> deceleration -> stall

3. crimped the booster hose with vice grips to avoid all vacuum relation to booster. high rpm -> deceleration -> stall

I should mention that I can avoid the dead stall by hitting the accelerator linkage again when it is at low rpm... and when I do I hear the carb hesitate and gasp for a split second. Then it switches to what I would assume is the proper jet and finds its idle again.

Therefore, before I read @John76 latest "adjust the float" post it started to feel like the carb.

His inline fuel filter was new but had some tiny debris in it - like the filter material had deteriorated and it had barely enough fuel to reach the paper filter. We replaced the filter and it immediately filled up to a normal level. Considering the debris on the unfiltered side - it is possible that debris made it into the filtered side and into the carb.

I then noticed that the passenger side barrel of his weber was quite fouled compared to the driver side. And this a "newly" rebuilt carb. I hadn't planned on spending too much time on this today but.. off the carb cover came just to do a quick visual. The floats were not filled (leaking). Unprepared to clean the primary jets and adjust the float level, we put it all back together and confirmed that: high rpm -> deceleration -> stall

When I returned home I saw john76's suggestion that we adjust the floats and I think it is a great idea. Can you explain to me a bit more about how the high float level or a severely clogged jet could cause this stalling behavior?

thanks,

That sounds very promising. Can you please give me a very quick instruction on accessing the felt pad: what is removed etc.?