felix_666

A novel and innovative solution! Would not have thought to do a manually controlled pressure relief valve. very creative. Glad you figured something out so you can work on other aspects of the car and enjoy it. So I take it that you never tried a different oil pump? Thanks for posting your solution.

 

Best, Fred

Never tried another pump. I know a fella with a new OEM and he wanted US$550, so it seemed too expensive for an experiment. I could find one if need be, but thought I'd try the valve first. If I'm still having problems later I'll pull the pan again and try another pump.

Cheers.

I'm sorry I have not seen this thread before. If you have made sure the pressure relief valve is assembled correctly it sounds to me like you may have an obstruction in the pressure relief tube that runs down the front of the engine and plugs into the pump. I once saw someone that thought there needed to be a gasket between the block and the pipe and that just closed it off completly. There may be something stuck in the pipe.

Just to make sure it is assembled correctly: the pressure relief valve is installed from the bottom of the pump with the closed end of the plunger pointing up, then the spring , the long tube is installed with the short end up with the spring sitting on the shoulder, then the washer, this is all held in place with a snap ring from the bottom. Completly assembled there should be no load on the spring and you should be able to wiggle the tube. I worry about taking very much material off the piston or the bore, if it gets loose enough the piston can cock in the bore and stick.

The system is very simple, I have never had a problem with a correctly assembled pump. If you know FOR SURE it is correct it just about has to be the bypass tube. With the pump off the engine you should be able to blow air backwards through that tube with very little resistance ( the air will go backwards through the filter and come out the pump feed hole in the block and also every bearing and cam spray bar hole, be careful you will spray oil everywhere). You can also blow air into the feed hole in the block and see if you get air out of the bypass tube with the pump off.

Long shot: While assembling an M10 block yesterday, I noted the ID of the oil galley where the tube/pipe attaches is threaded (I wondered, "Why?" and then moved on).

 

If some imaginative-yet-unknowing individual decided to install a plug in that end of the galley, the pressure relief system would not function (it would act as blocked, just like preyupy described above). -KB

I was thinking the same thing KB, if it is an early block that used the early gear type oil pump it would not have the bypass tube and would have had a plug in the end of the oil galley in the block.  If someone put a plug in it then put the bypass tube over it you would have this exact problem. 

I'm open to any ideas, but please read through the whole thread before posting, thanks.

The block and head are from a late 74' model.

1. I rebuilt the engine from scratch.

2. I've had the pan off twice, pulled the pump twice, and checked the pressure pipe as i thought that perhaps an o-ring might have gotten stuck after reaching such high pressures. The first time I was checking the orientation of the relief valve, it was correct, I even wet sanded the piston and bore - see earlier in the thread as I took photos. The second time I pulled the pump and inspected the pressure hose pipe.

3. Most importantly - pressure is around 30psi once warmed up. How could the system manage this if something were blocked?

I understand a liquids' viscosity changes with temperature, but if an orifice is blocked... its blocked?!?

My theory is that the block was assembled (by my builder) a little tight (although it turned over by hand no worries), the pump is a new febi unit (which are known to stick - pressure relief valve that is), and it simply needs a little time to bed in.

I've come to this conclusion after pulling the pan off twice and speaking to a plethora of people. If the needle valve didn't work then I would have pulled the pan again.

Problem solved....

...well sort of.

The needle valve gives me the ability to get the engine running properly, tuned the carbs and timed it. Now runs like a dream.

Once warm the pressure drops to around 30psi and the needle valve is closed. This is first time I've properly been able to play with the throttle and get the engine working a little, trying to seat things.

Not conventional, but whilst I still have some high spots in the engine this is my solution..... deal with it.

Not sure what you mean by modern, but some time in the 70's. They came from a ford escort mk2 which used the same scheel seats that BMW offered, or so I like to think anyhow.

This is how I went about installing my Scheel seats. I fabricated a bracket to re-align the holes - basing the design on a fellow 02er. Then I cut the existing seat rail that was raising the height of the seats. Made some 25mm blocks, taped M6 threads on two faces. Installed the brackets, rails and the complete assembly in the car. Pictures tell a thousand words...

Instructions are bellow the pictures...

chop chop

Drill holes in the remaining tabs

Create cubes (mild steel) and tape holes. I offset the holes. Cubes are 25mm x 25mm 25mm, these are how you determine your where to drill in to the 'remaining tabs' in the previous step. I don't think you can go much smaller than 25mm as there wont be enough space to tighten them up - space for a tool!

Fabricate the adapter. I used CAD. You will need to measure EACH seat as you will find they change shape over 40 years - or just slot your holes, but do try to measure once and cut twice...... no wait, measure twice and cut once, yeah thats it.

Close up of the cube/block attaching to the the tabs which attach to the adapter brackets - crappy M6 hardware just for show. I replaced all those with socket button head high tensile M6 hardware.

Getting the idea...?

Attaching the sliding mechanisms.

profile shot - this should explain why you couldn't make your blocks/cubes any shorter than 25mm

I am 6' and previously my head was touching the roof, now I am a lot lower, well clear of the roof by a few inches.

Now all I need to do is work out how to fix the chrome tape on the door cards and the interior is finished.

Cheers

I am very paranoid about the oil filter seal blowing. To prevent that from happening I installed a hose clamp over the gap between the filter and the filter housing. I hope that will keep the o-ring from blowing all the way out and slow down the leak enough to give me time to figure out what's going on.That said, as jgerock asked, is it possible that you installed the shim the wrong way? Not having an engine and pump in front of me, I'm not sure that can be done.Edit: Hmmmm, I just realised how old this thread is. I hope the problem is sorted out by now. An update would be nice so that we can all learn from it.

I'm overseas, haven't sorted the probnlem.

If I can get the engine to warm up without blowing the seal, the pressure drops to about 50psi.

If I had installed something incorrectly, such as the shims, I don't think the pressure would ever change, it would surely remain much higher like I've reported in previous posts.

Update: last time I started the engine I fitted a oil gauge and pegged 300_psi on start up which dropped to about 50psi once things had wasrmed up. After another start the oil filter seal burst again. I'm going to pull the sumo again (arhhhhhhhh) and sand the piston a little more and chech the o-rings are in place. I can't hack the engine spewing oil every fee times I start the engine. Its too degrading.

I'm currently in central america on holiday and will sort it out when I return home. Currently about to motorcycle around some volcanoes in Guatamala... Woo

which diagram number were you looking at, I can't seem to see a 245 diagram with the switch.

actually, is it diagram 23_0686

Your first part # (23141354071) is the correct Getrag 245 reverse light switch. It was used on a number of trannies through the E36 and is readily available.

I went to realoem and punched 23141354071 into "search by part number". Then it lists all the cars that use this part, e12, e21 ....etc

When you click on e21, it doesn't display a link for the 245 box, just the 242 and 240.

Am i missing something?

Your first part # (23141354071) is the correct Getrag 245 reverse light switch. It was used on a number of trannies through the E36 and is readily available.

Thank you, the answer i was looking for.

+1

get the switch that belongs in the tranny.

 

and check your light circut.  do you have 12v accross the wires that lead to the switch?

That's what I'm trying to do but couldn't find it on the etk. I simply couldn't find 245 page with the reverse switch in the diagram on the side of the tranny.

What was the reasoning behind putting an '02 switch into an E21 trans? They are different part numbers, and may have some internal differences like plunge depth, that make a difference. The correct switch is under $20, why not try one? A crush washer is part of the installation, and is likely critical to get to the design length.

 

David

Yes, hence the thread.

no takers?

I have doug through the archives but struggling to find a clear answer.

I have a 5 speed manual from an e21.

The terminals on the existing switch are loose, so I replaced the switch with a new 2002 one, no luck.

I've successfully tested both switches out of the car by connecting them and pressing the switch which actuates the lights perfectly. Although, each switch requires a different amount of displacement to engage the circuit.

I've read that there is a longer e21 switch which looks the same as the 02 switch.

Both my (2002) switches measure 21.5mm from the mating surface to the tip of the switch.

I have found two oem part numbers for switches but not sure of the difference.

BMW 23 14 1 354 071 BMW 61 31 1 352 153

Does anyone know of the longer e21 reverse switch?

Thanks

Is your pan baffled? (I know you are running a scraper, but that should not interefere with pulling the pan.) My pans are baffled and will not come out easily. I drop the subframe a bit, reach in and unbolt the pump, then pull the pan and pump out together. Reverse procedure for install. I will be glad to install my dry sump engine later this year, no more pesky stock pump!

 

--Fred

Pan is baffled, no scraper. Is a serious pain to pull the pan with the baffle, I got ahead of myself when I bought all the engine parts, regretting the baffle now.

I was a little nervous of sanding the piston too much, I guess now a little more couldn't have hurt, bummer.

Haven't swapped the pump. Was hoping that would be a last resort.

When I pulled the pan last week I disassembled the relief valve, plunger and all, stuck a light on the bore, gave it a light wet sand, lubed it all and put it back together.

Interesting thread. Sorry you are having troubles with your freshly rebuilt engine.  Looking at the picture of your oil pump, is it possible the shim was installed backwards so that the clearance hole for the relief port was blocked?

 

 

Wouldn't this mean that the pressure would remain high (100+psi) the entire time, instead of dropping like it has?

Interesting.  100+ psi at idle cold?  I've only built 4 or 5 motors, but with the new generation pumps, I've never seen that.

 

See if we can get Byron to chime in here, he's built more motors than I've eaten croissants...

 

Given, I guess, that it's usually not that cold here, and we don't race in the winter.

But I DO dd my car, even when it's well below freezing.

 

Now, the cars with stuck valves, those peg 150psi gauges at 2500 when they're not warm.  And I've had a few of those, too.

 

But to your filter problem, I've had it too, and ONLY on cars where the relief's not working.  Not sure why yours isn't,

but given what you've tried with filters, I'd be willing to bet a rusty trunk lid that it's not.

 

what I think,

t

okey doke.

lets say for a minute that it is the relief valve getting stuck, once my car warmed up the pressure dropped to 40-50psi, at this point I'm guessing it not stuck, right? 

So if it becomes unstuck after it warms up, whats making it stick (resisting 120+psi) for the initial period? Given I pulled it apart and everything looks fine, is there maybe an initial bedding in period??

My uneducated guess as to how the relief valve works, is as the pressure builds, the piston is pushed back against the spring and allows oil to bypass the system and be dumped back in the sump, with greater pressure resulting in more oil being dumped, obviously there are limits. Is this correct? Just so O'm clear. 

Maybe a blockage in oil gallery.  Have you removed the valve cover to see if there is plenty of oil spraying? Our the rocker shafts installed properly? (Open hole in upper rear)? Distributor housing gasket installed properly? 

Yeah everything is well covered in oil when I lift the rocker cover after running it, can only assume the shafts are correct, will check later this week.

Sounds like the relief isn't working for SOME reason- this isn't the old 'gear' style pump from 1966, is it?

 

It really shouldn't go over 100 psi ever, even with 50 wt at what, 50f?  And once hot, it should

rise quickly to 60- 65 psi, and hold that.  Maybe 70 at sustained high revs, but

not with anything normal like you're describing.

 

DO make sure you find an accurate gauge, but when it shows 150 psi, nah, something's not working in

the relief system.

 

And the oil filter actually has a square section ring at the bottom- I got some (don't remember the brand)

where the ring wasn't pushed far ENOUGH into it's groove, and they popped out pretty regularly.

The fix was stupidly easy- shove the ring down into the groove solidly, and no more poppy. 

 

t

Hear what you are saying Toby, but it you gander through the threads you will read plenty of people posting over 100 psi on start up, particularly when its cold and the pump is new. Given I installed the relief valve correctly, then pulled it apart to make sure, with no difference, I'm unsure what to believe.

 

  I had thought possibly that because I had made a windage tray and baffle set up in the sump, and deleted the brace for the oil pump, that perhaps it was getting twisted or flexed enough to jam the relief plunger, which I had out 4 times. I fitted another new pump, comparing the spring to a known OK pump, all within tolerance, but still extreme pressure.

Interesting, I too have a baffle from IE installed. Surely this isn't the problem given there are a lot of people running this design. I'm pretty sure the baffle doesn't impede the plunger. However it makes life hell when pulling the pan, don't think I'd put it in next time if the car is for the road.

hmmmmmm....

I've just been in a similar position. With a new engine/oil pump/m3 starter i got the oil light to come off in about 5 seconds without the plugs in. Obviously an old engine is going to be different, but surely you should be getting more pressure??

Would a missing o-ring from the pump cause this low pressure?

Anyone have thoughts on why the needle of the oil pressure gauge flickered the whole time.

I thought maybe the gauge got damaged when it was stuck on ite maximum for 5 mins.

Or, the relief valve is still getting sticking, making the needle dance.

Going to source a gauge with a higher maximum.

Even though the pressure relief piston, spring etc may be installed correctly, I have occasionally had problems with the piston sticking in the bore, causing the cold filter blowout you mention. This has happened on brand-new oil pumps as well as older oil pumps. My fix is to lightly wet sand the piston with 400 grit wet sand paper. Not saying that is what you should do, but it has worked for me.

Best of luck--Fred '69 & '74tii

I forgot to mention that I wet sanded and polished the piston from 600 to 2500 after I pulled the oil pan, did so after reading one of your posts. Cheers

Hello FAQer's.

I have been experiencing some problems with my freshly built engine. I have been problem solving with a friend for the past few weeks, but would like the input of those with experience in the area.

Background:

• Full nut and bolt restoration
• '74 Block +4200470
• E12 Head
• Engine was completely pulled apart, pressure tested, decked and all the rest of it.
• Over size 90mm pistons, 9.5:1 CR, 292 cam (reground), DCOE 40 webers
• Joe Gibbs Break In oil - 15w50
• New Febi oil pump
• 3 core radiator from W&N
• All other parts new or rebuilt (dizzy hasn't been recurved)

It is winter here now and I work in a garage several meters below the ground, its probably pretty constantly close to 12 degrees Celsius.

1. First time I started the engine the oil filter seal popped. Figured it was the crappy filter. Mopped up the mess.
2. Second time was shortly after the first, replaced the filter with a new Bosch unit. Filter popped again after 5 seconds of the engine turning over. On these first two occasions I used a good blip of throttle to get the engine to turn over. After many hours of research it seems this combined with the temperature was my problem.
3. After reading many posts about people installing the piston/plunger on the oil pump incorrectly I assumed this was the problem. Pulled the sump to investigate, everything was installed correctly, checked the length of the spring, all good. Stuck on a cold weather high pressure Mann oil filter.
4. Started the engine again the following week, incrementally adjusting the idle so the engine would start but not rev high to avoid high oil pressure. This worked, ran the engine for a couple of minutes, discovered a weeping T join on the carbs, turned the engine off to rectify the problem.
5. Started engine again shortly after the previous time. Once the engine turned over the RPM shot up and the filter burst.................. Scratching my head..... Not sure why the revs shot up as I hadn't touched the throttle, only the idle.
6. TODAY, I started the engine with an oil pressure gauge connected and ran the car for close to 20 min, until the temperature came up. The gauge was limited to 110psi.

• Had the car idling around 800 rpm +-40, ran pretty rough for the entire time
• After 5 min the pressure dropped to 90psi and still cold on the dashboard
• After around 10 min the temp came up to the bottom of the white on the dashboard and the pressure dropped down to around 70-90psi
• After 15 min or so, the temp came up half way (normal) and pressure dropped to around 40-50psi.
• after this I payed with the throttle, working the engine a little, the oil pressure would rise with rpm.
• The entire time the needle of the oil gauge was jumping around a fair bit.

It seems these values are too high, aside from the cold, new engine/pump, what else could be contributing to the high pressure?

VIDEO

http://s199.photobucket.com/user/felix__666/media/VIDEO0001.mp4.html

No rush. Thanks for the extra info.

I'm only looking at the twin cable setup as it is cheaper than the single from where I'm buying it from as it comes with a few extras.

My synchro tab is setup in reverse. I can't see how I could keep it so as it seems I wont be able to attach it to the linkage. 

if you have to cut the cable felix go get a un insulated crimp butt connector( for wires ) slide it down to your cut point and crimp it.

then cut right in half with grinder(fast rotory)

the cable will stay nice and it makes for a emergancy stop.

btw, Is it wrong for me to assume almost all the webber linkage s are coming from redline, and are just resold as company x,y,z's. custom stuff ?????

Thanks for the tip.

isn't redline just the distributor for weber stuff in Canada and America? Seems like they've rebranded weber as redline weber.