M10 rebuild ??

[75duece]

Hey All,

Havent had my 2002 for long , but it has been great till recently it has been running bad , and after a compression check it looks as the rings arent holdn in one cylinder, amongst other things....

So I decided I would take on a little project with some free time that I might have . I am gonna try rebuilding this M10 that has some compression trouble, other wise it is in fairly good condition, with only basic parts replaced. it is said to have a newer rebuilt stock head. It is basically all stock .

I am planning on doing a simple basic rebuild , keeping it mostly stock, mostly to keep the build basic. I am not against upgrades but am not so sure on fittments. so anyway ,

Anyone know off any write ups to rebuild/upgrading the M10...??

I am just lookng for more good info the motor internals , and what upgrades that fit nicely in a stock setup...

thanks

[KFunk]

I'm also thinking about doing this..... My engine will still propel the car for many more miles as it is, but I want decent stock power. I have no desire for major horsepower. Plus I'd like to re-use the original block.

Where can I get a 'rebuild kit' that will have the basic rings and bearings needed?

My oil pump, timing chain, water pump, valve seals, etc. are all fairly fresh, so I'll just leave them.

I'd like to just tear it out real quick, have a machine shop do some honing, and put it all back together. Ideally I'd like to do it in a weekend, but the machine shop would delay things. I figure I'll try to do it in the 2 weeks between autocrosses.

I'd rather not bump it out of FSP class. But I'd just be happy with 4 cylinders with strong compression.

[75duece]

Interesting, Not a bad idea you have there ........ =)

While rebuilding it to stock specs, with stock parts , I am starting to wonder ...

Will it be worth it . I mean, will it be a better idea to spend a little more and match a slightly upgraded(engine internal) setup ????

I was hoping I could stay away from the fullbore performance engine rebuild(budget), but since youre rebuilding it, what would you use for replacement parts... stock or performance?

I suppose if you track your car you must stay in guidlines, if so what do they do for a little more power, or to get the edge?

What would be the minimal , first step up, performance mods to this little motor??

how would that 292 cam and a 32/36 carb work out ?

these would work on the stock motor, no?

[winstontj]

I'm also thinking about doing this..... My engine will still propel the car for many more miles as it is, but I want decent stock power. I have no desire for major horsepower. Plus I'd like to re-use the original block.

Where can I get a 'rebuild kit' that will have the basic rings and bearings needed?

My oil pump, timing chain, water pump, valve seals, etc. are all fairly fresh, so I'll just leave them.

I'd like to just tear it out real quick, have a machine shop do some honing, and put it all back together. Ideally I'd like to do it in a weekend, but the machine shop would delay things. I figure I'll try to do it in the 2 weeks between autocrosses.

I'd rather not bump it out of FSP class. But I'd just be happy with 4 cylinders with strong compression.

kfunk,

you're SOL... if a machine shop touches the block you're going to need it to be totally stripped down. This means that you can still re-use parts (oil pump, timing chain, etc.) but on some level if you have it out and you are building a fresh motor... well its downright foolish to reuse some parts (IMO)

If you want to keep stock cam & compression than just talk to any shop out there (IE, Korman, MM, Bavauto, etc.) and buy "one over" (first hone/overbore) rings. Make it clear to the machine shop that you are in need of glaze breaking and honing - NOT the first overbore of the cylinder. If they bore it out you'll need new pistons.

I'd suggest taking the thing apart and measuring the pistons, etc. Betcha you'll find that the skirts are a little worn down. Also you'll want to do new valves..... possibly just measure up your valves and replace guides & seals - or replace it all.

HTH,

TJW

[75duece]

To those of you who have rebuilt these old motors .....

What parts did you find that were badly worn , and in need of replacement ????

Winston , you mentioned pistons worn is this common on an engine this old ? What about the crankshaft ? other parts ?

I suppose it would be a good idea, of course, to replace , but in general do these parts need to be replaced, or just measured & checked and put back in with some new bearings ??? =/

[winstontj]

To those of you who have rebuilt these old motors .....

What parts did you find that were badly worn , and in need of replacement ????

Winston , you mentioned pistons worn is this common on an engine this old ? What about the crankshaft ? other parts ?

I suppose it would be a good idea, of course, to replace , but in general do these parts need to be replaced, or just measured & checked and put back in with some new bearings ??? =/

our cranks are very robust. They usually do not wear unless you have far greater problems. Replace all bearings, measure, measure, measure, measure, re-measure then assemble. Get a variety of shims for your oil pump, they don't usually go but they do wear and need shimming (P.S. the washer for the oil pump sprocket goes BEHIND THE SPROCKET NOT BETWEEN THE NUT AND THE SPROCKET), Check your valves, they probably need cleaning and a new valve job, replace worn guides & seals (measure the valves),

Pretty much buy a manual and read it. Whatever it says to measure do it and you'll be fine. Pistons wear at the skirts (the part that goes down near the conrods) as well as the ring grooves, measure ring grooves as well as the wrist pins... it's been debated so many times now that I honestly forget whether or not you need new head bolts - I'd just get new ones and not risk it. Get all new gaskets, have your timing covers machined with the head/block or you'll leak oil like a sive forever... Replace the front & rear main seals, flywheel bolts, connecting rod bolts, water pump, measure valve springs, seats & retainers... replace if needed.... All the stuff in the book. No one really sells a rebuild kit but you can price out just about everything on BavAuto.com.

Hope that gets you started... OH and plan on resurfacing your flywheel - or even lightening it as well as resurfacing it....

[KFunk]

kfunk,

you're SOL... if a machine shop touches the block you're going to need it to be totally stripped down. This means that you can still re-use parts (oil pump, timing chain, etc.) but on some level if you have it out and you are building a fresh motor... well its downright foolish to reuse some parts (IMO)

I'm quite aware of that, but all 'fresh' parts mentioned have less than 10K miles or so on them. I've had the head checked over by a professional head shop, rockers and rocker shafts replaced, seals, etc.

Most of that work was for reliability, not performance.

Really the bottom end of the block is the only thing I haven't touched, and only because I didn't have a garage to do it in at the time and needed the car for transportation. I've known the rings/cylinder walls have been worn throughout having the car, but its not gonna stop the engine from running.

I'm not going to waste money on all other parts, when it would only make a slight difference 100-150K miles from now, at which point I could easily replace them. I may take a look at the clutch tho, as its an unknown.

I don't see it as that big of a job. Myself and family have rebuilt engines in a couple days before, and been on our way.

[75duece]

Thanks for the advice man ! thats exactly what I need to hear, all that kinda stuff you dont usually think about, the whats needed to be replaced parts ... would a new oil pump set up be even better ?

Looks like you have done this before?

What route did you take as far as replacing parts, such as rebuilding with stock or performance parts ?

[winstontj]

Thanks for the advice man ! thats exactly what I need to hear, all that kinda stuff you dont usually think about, the whats needed to be replaced parts ... would a new oil pump set up be even better ?

Looks like you have done this before?

What route did you take as far as replacing parts, such as rebuilding with stock or performance parts ?

I've actually never rebuilt an M10 before.... believe it or not!!

I have done a bunch of other motors from V-8's to 4-cyl turbos and smaller (2 & 4 stroke). I am in the middle of my first M10 rebuild now, building a stroked motor for one of my cars. Im as far as tear it down and start acquiring parts but haven't done the machine shop yet. I'm putting all performance parts into the motor - hoping for the best, most powerful, but specific for my needs/wants NA motor one can build. I'm using an s14 87mm crankshaft, putting oversize valves in the head, 304 cam (may still use a 292 and may only do +1mm on the intake and stock on the exhaust valves), 10:1 compression pistons, 92.5mm bore, extensive head work - porting, combustion chamber work to match pistons, custom crank pulley, custom oiling and a slew of other stuff....

It's not cheap and it's a blast to dream about driving it when it'll be done and it's taking forever.......

[bevans6]

If all you want to do is get on the road again, then when you get the head off you'll know. If the bores are worn there will be a marked ridge at the top of the bore where the rings stop. If you have that, you probably need to bore and use new pistons. If you don' then you can deglaze with a ball hone, new rings on the old pistons and on your way. With some cars you can drop the pan and do that in the car...I wouldn't personally, but it's been done.

Things you can change while you're in there are bearings, chains, gaskets, seals, etc. Just because it's best to do a proper rebuild doesn't mean that a simple ring job won't get you another 40K miles...

Brian

[KFunk]

If all you want to do is get on the road again, then when you get the head off you'll know. If the bores are worn there will be a marked ridge at the top of the bore where the rings stop. If you have that, you probably need to bore and use new pistons. If you don' then you can deglaze with a ball hone, new rings on the old pistons and on your way.

In my case, I don't have any marked ridge at the top of the bore, as of the last time I had the head off. But, the cylinder walls on number 1 and 2 feel like they have a couple rough patches, and need honed. Is there any chance I can take care of that myself in the garage? I don't recall honing a cylinder myself before, but I'm sure it could be done.

I'd sure also love to do a full on power rebuild, but at this point in my life, I don't have the time or motivation to spend that much effort in fooling with a car. I'd just like decent stock compression/torque, without leaving a cloud of smoke everytime I take off.

[winstontj]

Is there any chance I can take care of that myself in the garage? I don't recall honing a cylinder myself before, but I'm sure it could be done.

BAD IDEA IMO...

I tride this the first time I built a motor - it was an Audi Coupe GT quattro. I got a VW Quantum block that had bigger bore pistons & bigger stroke crank. I went to pep boys and bought one of those $10 cylinder honing three stone contraptions, hooked it up to the drill & had at it. I burned through five or six of those things (I was 14 years old) before I started running out of money and dad stepped in with the checkbook and the machine shop. The guy at the machine shop said honing needs to be done with cutting oil, press, proper stones, etc.

If you are considering replacing rings with the block (and crank) in the car... What do you have to lose? Worst case is you learn the hard way and have to do it correctly next time.... Try it and post up your results - but I'm glad it's your block not mine :-)

[75duece]

I am in the middle of my first M10 rebuild now, building a stroked motor for one of my cars. Im as far as tear it down and start acquiring parts but haven't done the machine shop yet. I'm putting all performance parts into the motor - hoping for the best, most powerful, but specific for my needs/wants NA motor one can build. I'm using an s14 87mm crankshaft, putting oversize valves in the head, 304 cam (may still use a 292 and may only do +1mm on the intake and stock on the exhaust valves), 10:1 compression pistons, 92.5mm bore, extensive head work - porting, combustion chamber work to match pistons, custom crank pulley, custom oiling and a slew of other stuff....

It's not cheap and it's a blast to dream about driving it when it'll be done and it's taking forever.......

Oreallly ! hehehe ... wow thats quite a list of parts and a hellova project !!! sounds awesome man, got any pics you would like to share ? maybe not yet as you say but it would be sweet to see all those parts going into, and making the new engine .

Or maybe before and after machine shop pics? ??? would make an awesome thread....

What kinda condition was it in before you started and how did it look once you pulled it apart ?

[KFunk]

Is there any chance I can take care of that myself in the garage? I don't recall honing a cylinder myself before, but I'm sure it could be done.

BAD IDEA IMO...

I tride this the first time I built a motor - it was an Audi Coupe GT quattro. I got a VW Quantum block that had bigger bore pistons & bigger stroke crank. I went to pep boys and bought one of those $10 cylinder honing three stone contraptions, hooked it up to the drill & had at it. I burned through five or six of those things (I was 14 years old) before I started running out of money and dad stepped in with the checkbook and the machine shop. The guy at the machine shop said honing needs to be done with cutting oil, press, proper stones, etc.

If you are considering replacing rings with the block (and crank) in the car... What do you have to lose? Worst case is you learn the hard way and have to do it correctly next time.... Try it and post up your results - but I'm glad it's your block not mine :-)

Honestly Thomas, you're being a bit of an asshole here. Now I'm asking nicely for opinions on whether things are do-able, and you're being very condescending and assuming I'm going to jump in and do something stupid.

I doubt I'd ever try to hone a block with a handheld drill, as there's no way of holding it steady. I do have a drill press, but would only use it if more respected FAQers said it was safe to try. I have no plans of doing any of this with the block in the car. I can just pull it right out with our hoist. It's far easier than the minivan we did before.

[76duece]

Holy screename thief, Batman!