Update of the Schnitzer 2002 (Gruppe 5) Project

[BMW2002T]

Mark, glad to see you back in the saddle/garage again. I am going to send you some pictures of my cars and Steinko Hut the driver in the video. He gave me video of practically every race he ran in his four championship seasons with the car. He ran more seasons than that but won four championships. I am getting back in my garage this weekend also. We need to motivate each other. Have a great weekend. Sam

[BMW2002T]

Mark, check your personal email, pictures of Steinko, some of my other cars, and the Group Five motor in the car are in your personal email. Sam

[Kari]

Hallo friends! My name is Kari and I am from Austria. I was reading your conversation for a long time. It is realy interesting. I am interested in a Schnitzer 16 V head for my 2002. Can you please geive me any idea how much is just a head with cover, valves, cam rocks,... and how much would be a reasonable price for a complead engine? The guy told me the parts are all in good condition.

Thanks for your help.

[BMW2002T]

You have to be really careful when buying a head. Look at the head and see how much space is between the bottom of the head and how much space is between the Schnitzer writing on the head and the bottom of the head. If there is no space the head is bad. The more space the better. I sold a valve cover and front timing cover for 3,000 USD. The valve covers are magnesium and are often pitted.

I have enough parts for two motors including a 1.4 turbo motor for a Schnitzer. I paid 20,000 USD or 16,000 Euros for a Schnitzer motor four years ago.

[markmac]

Sam is right, they are very expensive. I sold a NOS head that needed all the machine work done on it for over $12,000 with intakes for carburettors, probably one of the last "new" heads in existence. I regret selling that piece. My thought process when I started my project was that I would refurbish the used head (which I am doing) and then save the spare for some future need. Mine has had alot milled off of it, but is still useable. Check my blog, I have done a write up on this, use the label's and click on Schnitzer Engines.....Back on topic, used heads that dont have issues (cracks, too much material taken off are hard to find). At a bare minumum you need the head, cam carrier, cams, front timing cover, valve cover and intakes for either carb or injection. Virtually everything else can be made. I may know of the whereabouts of an injected engine, canted for use in an o2, not sure on the price but I want to say 20,000 Eur. The parts and pieces for these are hard to find and are getting harder and more expensive. Probably not what you wanted to hear but is the reality of the situation.

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[tinkwithanr]

I wonder if the patterns are still around from those castings. It would be very cool to see the heads and associated parts made again, even in regular 'ol aluminum and not magnesium.

[markmac]

Yes/No. Schnitzer had them of course but the molds had degraded and needed repair. I have heard that they actually sold them to someone in Germany, what they are going to do with them who knows. I can tell you this - to take a raw casting to a finished useable part is quite an undertaking, many (many) precise machine processes and set-ups. You would either have to have the skill to do it yourself or be able to do like 10 or 20 to even have it make sense. I had another group contact me and they are working on one now, but it is going to be very expensive. A number of people are re-making BMW M12 parts including cylinder heads so I am surprised it has taken so long for someone to fill the gap. You can still get a lot of the M12 stuff from BMW but it is SUPER expensive, the Schnitzer stuff is pretty much unobtanium, unless you know the folks that have it ratpacked away and the random auction that comes up here and there.

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[BMW2002T]

The heads were not made out of magnesium the valve cover were. I believe the heads are made out of aluminum.

If you want a Schnitzer like head/motor you could use the early 1987-1992 M3 S14 motor. The head from the E30 M3 looks very much like a Schnitzer motor's head. I would say that if you modified the valve covers (front and top), very few people would know the difference and the power you could extract from the motor could be very similar. I believe BMW designed that motor from the Schnitzer brothers original design (note my personal opinion).

[BMW2002T]

I would like to re-connect with you if you are still out there and get more historical information on the restoration of the Ruuls sponsor Hut driven car I purchased from Laurens Manders if you are still on the forum.

Sam

[Kari]

Many thanks for the information. I talked to the guy how owns the engine and we will wait until spring for any further dessicion. In the meantime I am looking around, if anybody can reconstruct the engine-head with all the parts as covers, cam-shaft, valves,... perhaps there is a market for it. Lets see how much such a "set" or complete engine will be.

The S 14 engine is of course also a posibility. But if you want to do historical race, you cant use an S14 engine. And also there is another question of a BMW freak "Why all these Ford Escord" drivers will get the good stuff in England and for an BMW you are not able to get more than 220 PS out of an 2 Valve M10 engine??? That's not fair!

[tinkwithanr]

Yes the heads were aluminum, and unless the racing classes restricted the parts to their original material it would be much easier to make the other parts in aluminum as well. There would be very little weight addition for much cheaper production costs, not that cost seems to be an issue with these engines.

[Guest Anonymous]

Heads were aluminum, cam carriers were cast both in aluminum and magnesium; valve covers, upper timing covers, slide throttle casing/carburettor manifolds, oil pan and the dry sump oil pump housing were also all cast in mag. Motors that were run F2 style (vertically) also had the lower timing cover cast in mag, canted motors typically run in the o2 used a standard Tii lower timing cover (aluminum). The BMW engines had to compete against Ford (Cosworth BDG) and those motors could run on alloy blocks - a HUGE advantage for weight, which is why BMW tried to reduce as much as they could through lightweight parts elsewhere (those same parts in a Cosworth motor were all cast in aluminum). Every little bit helped.d

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Kari]

I think it sould be o.k. to make all the parts out of aluminium. I allready found a company who is willed and able to rebuild the heads, covers,...

I am very interested in the price they will ask for. Do you think there is a market out there all over the world?

[markmac]

Hard to say. Making the parts (casting them) is one thing - machining / finishing them is a whole nother deal. If you were to investigate this I would find out how much $$$ (or EUR) it would take to make parts soup to nuts (finish). Some might be interested in buying raw castings (assuming you had highly competent machining capabilities), others would want the fnished parts - here is a post oint he General Discussion area that is ongoing and relevant to your questions.

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,0/page,viewtopic/t,369224/

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[BMW2002T]

As Mark said I believe there is a market but it will be price dependent. Unless you are a purist or a historic racer you have options that will allow you to install different power plants in your 2002 or 320 with the same amount of power. So if the price is in the S14 range why not install a Schnitzer reproduction motor. Lot's of M2's (2002 with S14) are starting to show up on the scene with an S14 motor. A Schnitzer reproduction motor would be a great alternative even if you had to pay a small premium or a S14 motor. This is just my .02 cents. Sam