evil02

1 hour ago, gary32 said:

Interesting evil02. What head do you plan to use for your 72 2002 turbo build? 

I have a 1.8ltr head. custom cam, billet rockers, larger valves/springs/Ti retainers, etc.. The head was welded and is ported as much as I could. It flows pretty good. I wish I had other heads to cut up and see if they would have been better to use or not but, I didn't.

This may not be the best head but, it will work fine. I wasn't building for the highest HP or Tq or Rev's or anything special. I just wanted a rock solid motor in the 450-500hp range. 

  We did an analysis of the crank and I don't think it can handle much more than 600 and high RPMs.  I can build a billet crank for $2500 -$2700 that can handle over 1000 hp but, whats the point..

 All this being said, the motor could blow up. Who knows.. I'm just giving it a shot. I'm not really a BMW guy per say, I just like building motors.

5 minutes ago, jk16vturbo said:

I can't even find E85 around me at a station.  I am actually considering getting a license to distil alcohol for a fuel.  It adds up to about $.80/gallon and it burns like high octane fuel with little to no emissions.  My 02 will be used primarily for going to and from shows and a local track day or two.  I know the jets need to be opened up to the size of a garden hose.  

 

I partially agree with you on Honda reliability.  You have to do some serious mods to the block on the B series engine if you want to see 6-800 hp reliably when turboed.  Even then the block stiffeners/dart sleeves aren't always enough.  

Yeah, you would need a 25 gallon fuel tank to get anywhere, lol..

But understand what you are saying. "You need serious mods to make 6-800 horse from a B series(4cylinder) to make 4 times the HP it came with. Which is impressive as it is. I am talking about a J-series (6cylinder and newer design then a B series) and doesn't need any mods but, valve springs and maybe rods to hit 800

10 minutes ago, jk16vturbo said:

After seeing the E85 fuel being offered up, has anyone put any thought into running a M10 on straight alcohol?  Anybody know what compression a NA motor would need and would a single DCOE 45 with the linx manifold be enough to fuel that?  

  I have not run a M10 on e85 or straight alcohol but, I tried a non BMW motor on propane and that was pretty cool(no pun intended).  E85 is an excellent choice but, the quality at the pump is not always good. Tank to tank could have different qualities and different times times of the year(summer to winter), they have different blends.  Race E85 is where it is at but, expensive and not convenient. Pump does work but, you just can't tune to the ragged edge. A few degrees less timing and its fine.

1 hour ago, irdave said:

I suppose we're looking at both ends of the spectrum here.

 

 And while Honda, and HRC in particular, can go fuck themselves, they do make some nice motors...)

For sure!  I only mention this stuff because this was a turbo engine build thread. None of this is needed to make a 90hp motor that will last 300,000 miles.  My suggestions will make a high hp turbo motor and last maybe 100k miles. Most people doing an engine rebuild are doing the machine work anyways so, might as well use modern technology.

 Regarding the Honda(and HRC). Their heads flow second to none. My new LT5 GM engine is pretty close, if not there but, you can take a bone stock Honda J series motor(11:1 compression, 260 crank hp stock) with over 100k miles on it , through a turbo on it and make 650 to 800hp all day long and it will run another 100k miles. No question that other manufactures know how to engineer good motors too.

40 minutes ago, xr4tic said:

Almost as much HP as a Type-R sticker on the trunk.

 Electric water pump AND Type-R sticker = serious business!!

8 hours ago, 2002iii said:

I was talking about titanium piston pins not pistons.

 

You've proven my point exactly it's not free because you have to pay for all the machining.

 

Nascar engines get rebuilt after every 2 races sometimes more often. They are also only meant to survive 1000 miles and cost up to $50k. I don't think most people on here plan to spend that much to only go 1000 miles 

Your point is lost because if you build any type of performance motor(not even a race motor, just a very good build), you would be doing machine work to the crank so, might as well use smaller bearings. The rods and the pistons are ordered with the proper sizes to use modern bearings. So, yes, it is still free.

 We can agree to disagree, its ok. I'm not here to sell you anything other than to open your eyes and tell you there are parts out there other than BMW parts that work. In fact, there are parts that work 100x better.

 Regarding Nascar, People also won't drive 1000 miles at 9000rpms without lifting. Run the same motor like a street engine and it will probably last 20 years. My point is using what I told you is not exotic and race only. I have motors with over 50k miles on them with zero problems. They are a mixture of track and street car(mainly track). Is what I am saying for everyone, no. This is the wrong forum for anything exotic or full race so, I expect people to not like what I am saying but, given the spirit of THIS thread, I thought is would fit right in.

33 minutes ago, 2002iii said:

Usually lighter means weaker, unless your using titanium. 

 

I would rather not put Honda parts in my BMW engine. So these bearings just magically fit without machining? How many miles have you put on one of these motors?

I can go on for days but, please trust I am not spreading internet false hoods.  There are far smarter people writing white papers and engineers on other forums that discuss the same thing I am talking about. I can tell you that modern material selections, forging techniques and geometry plays a huge part in strength. There is no need for titanium pistons. Titanium is best suite for rods. Look up pistons for diesel engines running incredible amounts of boost and the pistons are tiny and aluminum. Also, modern pistons are available with the latest and greatest heat and anti friction coatings.

No, you machine fit these bearings. Trust me, every guy here with a race motor is either doing it now or learning for the first time( your welcome  ).   Look up what bearing sizes Nascar uses in their 700+hp, 9,000rpm, push rod motors and they are the same .188" Honda sized bearings. It is a great speed secret to use smaller bearings. Hell, I have made main bearing caps with inserts to use smaller bearings in Porsche motors. Custom cranks with Honda journals. Its about how much hp do you want to make and how much money do you have to spend.

1 hour ago, 2002iii said:

Wouldn't using a smaller pin and higher pin height just put more stress on the pin and piston?

 

In my opinion I wouldn't bore it out anymore than you need to just in case you want to rebuild it again. Also turbo+thin cylinder walls=trouble.

 

There's no such thing as free power, you have to buy the parts and spend the time to disassemble and reassemble the parts. 

No and no, Smaller pin = lighter pin and raised pin equals smaller, lighter piston.

 Look at high HP Honda's. they use the smallest pins and bearings out there. Designed right and a smaller, raised pin is the way to go. Raise too high and the ring pack gets compromised a little but, go with a good piston company and they will already know this. I have had many sets custom made from Mahle, JE and Cp.  lots of options out there.

 There is such a thing as free power. Remove friction and you get it. I can run a BMW rod with stock bearings(big and small side) or I can run a BMW rod with Honda bearings (big and small side) and free up both friction and weight. Both rods in the same motor, I'll take the one with Honda bearings. I do this in all types of motor builds.

(FYI - I'm not a master engine builder but, I blew up enough to know what works).

25 minutes ago, xr4tic said:

 

Certainly not out of the question.  Given the choice of bore or stroke to increase displacement, bore is better for turbo, but you can only go so far.

 

Read up on rod/stroke ratio, if you decide to go with a bigger stroke, be sure to cram in the longest rod you can.

 I would go larger bore, use a smaller pin on the piston and raise the pin height as much as possible. Use a modern piston with a modern spring pack and use narrow rod journals.. pull the friction out and gain free power.

2 hours ago, gary32 said:

 

Benjamin is right today sophisticated motor controls can wring out previously unapproachable power levels.

 

 

  The processor speeds, knock control and new fuels make tuning much easier to make power. Knowing how to tune helps too

51 minutes ago, markmac said:

They have an M12/13 F1 motor on racecars direct right now......hurry and get your check book out....it's EUR 185.000,00

 

BMW M12/13 for sale

If they had two I would buy them but, just 1? why bother...

6 minutes ago, tzei said:

Factory dyno maxed at about 1280 hp and they maxed it. Estimates vary between 1300 and 1400 hp. Some machine uh?

 

http://www.gurneyflap.com/bmwturbof1engine.html

Amazing to say the least. I have a friend that was a young apprentice that worked for BMW motorsports and on that car (meaningless tasks I am sure as he was young man). He has great stories and photos.

1 hour ago, Son of Marty said:

I think the factory's 1200hp f1 qualifying motor is a bench mark that's going to stand. 

probably but, my local gas station doesn't have Toluene at the pump to help me fuel 5.4bar boost so, I need something that will run on E85 or worst case 94 octane. 

5 hours ago, tzei said:

@evil02 yes i could go bigger turbine housing and cam should be made acordingly or just tweak cam alone. Or i could start using ethanol (now normal 98e pump fuel). But thing is i don’t need more hp (atleast for now lol). It’s hard enough as is to put power down to tarmac efficiently (semi slicks) and wet conditions even more so. So i got my handsfull plus it stays together (ten years or so, no major hick ups). I like wide ish torque band - what i wanted and hp is enough to hit 240 km/hour (longest straigt on our tracks).

 

- normal stuff.

No, that make sense for sure. In the spirit of "how much hp can you make with a M10 turbo" you are proving that the answer is a lot!  Your motor has a nice torque band for sure. A bigger turbo and it's possible to be 500+hp

haha, yeah "normal stuff"

5 hours ago, tzei said:

Off of upper end i think. Here is where i'm at (M10B18, @1.9 bar):

dyno_471b.pdf 19.18 kB · 2 downloads

Very nice! congrats! I knew it was possible to hit those number. I just need time to put it all together!

Have you considered a different hotside?  Maybe a cam or something to move a little more air? Lots of torque(which is awesome) but, I feel like you can make more HP on top, especially with more revs.

1 hour ago, Dudeland said:

I am following this one closely as well.  I am not nearly as close as evil02, but is a stroker out of the question for a turbo build?

 Strokers are cool and between a stroker or all bore, they are pretty different. I like all bore(big bore) for turbo builds. I don't have m10 experience with a stroker but, I have done many in the P-car world. My M10 is just .5mm over sized pistons. with all the headwork, valves and the cam, it should yield some serious power. I was hoping for well over 400hp. We'll see. Maybe I am way off..

3 hours ago, Lorin said:

Regarding rods, you left out the option of actual high quality rods. You know, the ones the Chinese knock offs  copied. 

FYI - there are a few Chinese brands that I have used(non M10) a supercharged v-6 that made 650rwhp at 8k rpms with no concern. In fact, I'm going to try to spin it to 9k next, lol.   Also, I know a few 180'ish n/a M10's using Chinese rods with no issues. There are good and bad brands.

I like this thread!  Good luck with your build!!   I'm kind of right behind you.  I have all the parts to build my m10 turbo. I have custom rods, custom pistons, new billet cam, big valves, springs, ti retainers, etc.. Gen II Gtx35 and stand alone.  I just have to get the block bored but, have to many builds going on at the same time..

13 hours ago, chargin said:

 

For Mike G ? Video above

Very nice!!  That is a glorious sound!

2 hours ago, gary32 said:

13b rotary is mounted about 7" back from the front location of a stock M10, notch and box the frame rail for the single K04 turbo, big front intercooler, oil cooler, radiator, front plug is real close to the stock steering box, 3" pipe off the turbo crafted with a big borla muffler, a Motec controls (5) 1000cc injectors all done 21 years ago. She has run up to 25 lbs of boost.

 

Nice work chargin your beastie may need a blower.

Nice!   it the trans hole opening way back from original??

48 minutes ago, Tommy said:

 

That's basicly what I read too. I got to test my racecar with the swapped engine couple of times and dyno.

One thing is that I'd like the VTEC to engage 1k earlier but I don't think I'm willing to pay Haltech money for it.  I don't believe there's any significant power to gain other than that without other modifications. I love how it starts with stock ecu and basicly it works just fine.

Oh, another issue is the japanese speed limiter at 180km/h as I have JDM engine. I'm going to try just cutting the speed signal from ECU (or ECM in Honda language? ).

I had high idle too. Idle control valve was sticking and after cleaning it works fine.

There is no substitute for factory engine calibration and mapping. They truly have it down. Most of the time, factory ECU's even have faster processing speeds etc over aftermarket systems.  For you, perhaps Hondata would be better?  I think they use all the factory settings and maps but, you can modify from there.

21 minutes ago, gary32 said:

Thanks I understood. If you are putting something Japanese under the hood go big.

Here's mine.

I like that a lot!! Any problems with interference of the steering box, exhaust, subframe, etc?  What engine management?  I just sold my CD009 trans to a local guy with a 500rwhp rx7 here. I love those motors!

18 minutes ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

While I don't want to detract from how genuinely excellent The F20 transmission is (because it is absolutely that fantastic), I think you're selling the Getrags a little short.

The 420g is fantastic and is up to major hp. That is what we put behind the K24 before we swapped to the v10 

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

What do you expect to gain with Haltech over stock ecu?

People like to throw away hundreds of hours of near perfect tuning that a team of engineers provided. Unless running boost, I personally see no reason for changing. 

That being said, I wish the OP the best of luck!

 The car looks great and I bet it is a blast to drive! Great swap for sure!!  The K24 was nice in our e30 m3. It had decent torque and very reliable.

19 hours ago, gary32 said:

Why not start here?

I have first hand knowledge the humble 02 can handle bigger numbers than these.

Sorry, these numbers are going through my S2000 chassis and gear box. I have a supercharged S2000. I was just pointing out that my transmission is taking this kind of power but, there are plenty out there that blow these transmissions up.

6 hours ago, irdave said:

 

Maybe some of them, but I think the 265 spins to 9 pretty easy- all the guys with high revving s14's are using a stock gear box... I think Jimmy (?) has a T5 in one car, and a couple guys are using other internals (Samsonas?), but in general...

 

And everybody says the Honda F box is the bomb-diggity.

 

   We have about 390hp and about 250ftlbs of tq going through our S2000 box. It shifts great but, they are not without their own problems. The CD009 infinity trans is silky smooth and can take 800ft of torque+. It's way to big for the 2002. I tried but, it was a hard no go..